PvP (class balance)

BoeserBubBoeserBub ...
edited January 25 in PvP Discussion
1.) There is some skill involed fighting PvP "mage vs mage" or "mage vs hybrid".
2.) it feels like there is no skill involed in "mage vs warrior" or "mage vs archer" or "archer vs warrior" or "warrior vs warrior"

I dont hope for a perfect balanced fight between all classes. I hope for a nice "scissor, paper, stone" system, where stone can win against paper, if he plays his cards perfectly while paper mess up.

All I could come up with is: more abilities for "non caster classes". Otherwise they are forced to play some kind of hybrid.

Comments

  • BoeserBubBoeserBub ...
    edited January 26
    Because my oppinion will be biased on the classes I play:
    - If you are a pure fighter, do you feel like you are in the right place right now (or overpowered/underpowerd)? Whats missing? Same for Archers.
  • I agree with you. My solution would be item wise. For example I'm a warrior with no magery at all and I have no chance against a mage in the game at the moment. So if there was an item, which I can equip over my leather set (a robe for example), and become immune to certain spells. This robe could be crafted by fabricators and sold for a high price.

    Examples would be:

    a Fire Robe: immune to fire spells
    a Frost Robe: attacker is slowed 40% for 3 secs which can occur every 15 sec.

    The character must not have Evocation skill in order to equip these robes.

  • Robes would be unbalanced; IMHO, you could switch out robes
    For example, mage switches over to fire spells and you switch over to a fire robe.
  • I see your point but you shouldn't carry something that valuable in your bag since thieves will be around. :)
  • Magic Resist skill?
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Fixed if switching armor & robes in combat took a few seconds in which you can't attack.
  • Sacha said:

    Fixed if switching armor & robes in combat took a few seconds in which you can't attack.

    I'm guessing there would be a macro that could switch out the robes in under 1/2 second, perhaps even responding to what spell is being cast.

  • cakemos said:

    I see your point but you shouldn't carry something that valuable in your bag since thieves will be around. :)

    We need a robe that auto-reveals, kills, and then transports nearby thieves to the moon.

  • Ithiel said:

    Magic Resist skill?

    I'm up for having magic resist skill but then skill cap should be 700, not 600. Also magic resist skill should reduce beneficial skills potency as well.
  • edited January 28
    cakemos said:

    Ithiel said:

    Magic Resist skill?

    I'm up for having magic resist skill but then skill cap should be 700, not 600. Also magic resist skill should reduce beneficial skills potency as well.
    Why 700 skill points?

    You can make a full mage with 400 points.

    You can make a full warrior with 400 points. You can even take blocking to 100 and still have 100 extra for whatever you want.

    Before the "I can't fit that into my hybrid build rebuttle". All skill points are personal choices, they each have merits and flaws. This is what makes skill based games so much fun.
  • Ithiel said:

    cakemos said:

    Ithiel said:

    Magic Resist skill?

    I'm up for having magic resist skill but then skill cap should be 700, not 600. Also magic resist skill should reduce beneficial skills potency as well.
    Why 700 skill points?

    You can make a full mage with 400 points.

    You can make a full warrior with 400 points. You can even take blocking to 100 and still have 100 extra for whatever you want.

    Before the "I can't fit that into my hybrid build rebuttle". All skill points are personal choices, they each have merits and flaws. This is what makes skill based games so much fun.
    700 because in order to have magic resistance to your 6x gm warrior char you need evocation to increase magic resistance, which will make you to delete 2x of your already gmed skills.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Jerboa said:

    Sacha said:

    Fixed if switching armor & robes in combat took a few seconds in which you can't attack.

    I'm guessing there would be a macro that could switch out the robes in under 1/2 second, perhaps even responding to what spell is being cast.
    If it takes 3 seconds to put your robes on /by engine) then you can't do it in less time, no matter how many macros you do.
    What I mean is:
    - You are in combat and click to equip fire robe.
    - Message: "you start equipping your Fire robe"
    - (You can't do anything else)
    - After 3 seconds message: "Fire robe equipped".
    - You can do actions again

  • cakemos said:

    Ithiel said:

    cakemos said:

    Ithiel said:

    Magic Resist skill?

    I'm up for having magic resist skill but then skill cap should be 700, not 600. Also magic resist skill should reduce beneficial skills potency as well.
    Why 700 skill points?

    You can make a full mage with 400 points.

    You can make a full warrior with 400 points. You can even take blocking to 100 and still have 100 extra for whatever you want.

    Before the "I can't fit that into my hybrid build rebuttle". All skill points are personal choices, they each have merits and flaws. This is what makes skill based games so much fun.
    700 because in order to have magic resistance to your 6x gm warrior char you need evocation to increase magic resistance, which will make you to delete 2x of your already gmed skills.
    Or just go fight magic casting creatures...

    We did that in UO for years.
  • cakemoscakemos Turkey
    edited January 29
    I'm not sure if you are trying to look cool, or not. However UO, the game you are referring to, has always had a skill cap of 700. So if you fought spell casting monsters to increase your resistance, you did it wrong.
  • cakemos said:

    I'm not sure if you are trying to look cool, or not. However UO, the game you are referring to, has always had a skill cap of 700. So if you fought spell casting monsters to increase your resistance, you did it wrong.

    Looking cool? I made the suggestion.

    We do not need more skill points. This only further unbalances the game. This is one of the things I like better than UO.

    Your telling me your only method for gaining magic resist would be evocation? What so you can ask macro it? Stop macroing and go play the game.

    Also, smart guy I'll 1-up you here on UO knowledge. The fastest way to GM magic resist from 30 was to stand on a boat slightly off shore. 2 tamers pull 2 dragons each on shore and have them attack you. Have a healer on the boat to help keep you alive. GM in 4 hours flat.

    So, if your method of burning up reagents to GM resist, your doing it wrong!

  • And you macro it lol. Scram kid.
  • BoeserBubBoeserBub ...
    edited January 29
    We have wisdom that works a bit like "magic resist". Also if we are talking about the UO "magic resist" ... this is an passive and has 0 to do with "skill/timing".

    with skill involved I mean some cool things you could do when you time them right, but get some punishment when you mess it up. They dont have to be broken powerful, but just powerful enough that you feel rewarded if used correct.

    I.e. after one successful block with your shield, you can use an instant ability one time within a timeframe (maybe 5 seconds) to daze your opponent for 0.25 second (well timed, you could interrupt a mage casting or cancel the attack from an warrior). However, if you try to use this ability and didnt successfully blocked beforehand, you take some extra dmg on the next hit.

    Right now three abilities/bandage/potion/2 weaponabilities and stay on target - this is very limited.
  • I don't know if a rock/paper/scissors system would fix the problem.

    If you have too many rocks running around the paper templates will come out in full force, over populate, and then the scissors will rise up and which point you'll be back to rock templates being popular.

    Yes, I know at first that sounds ideal but consider this: To be competitive you'll still need to have 3 different builds (or characters). You'll be pulling out rock to fight scissors only to find they pulled out paper in anticipation of your rock move.

    For me the rock/paper/scissors analogy fails on two counts:
    1: Regardless of the system, you still have to build 3 characters to be competitive.
    2: You'll still get owned repeatedly - people are only going to fight you when they're paper to your rock.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A brief word about balance:

    I don't even know why balance is desirable. It seems to me making some classes more difficult to play is a nice way to add variety to the game. Let's say you clear dungeon X with 3 tamers - can you go back through and clear it with 3 melee fighters? If everything is perfectly balanced then the answer would be "YES" - hence, the challenge is gone because every class, under every circumstance, performs in exactly the same way.

    So then you're doing exactly the same percentage of damage and taking the same percentage of damage per round of battle no matter what class you're playing. The only thing you're changing out is the spell/sword effects - BORING.



  • BoeserBubBoeserBub ...
    edited January 29
    I think I didnt communicate well what I would like to see in my first post. My post from today 2:36PM describes it better. Overall I think there are to limited options in fights for anything that doesnt use magic.

    Stone/Paper/Scissor was also just an example. The more variety/viablo options you have, "Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock" will automatically happen, since something will be stronger against mages, while something else will be stronger against warriors etc.
  • cakemos said:

    And you macro it lol. Scram kid.

    No, you don't macro it!

    The point is to stop macroing and encourage gameplay.

    Please bring something useful to the conversation other than your lazy need to macro all your skills.
  • edited January 29
    BoeserBub said:

    I think I didnt communicate well what I would like to see in my first post. My post from today 2:36PM describes it better. Overall I think there are to limited options in fights for anything that doesnt use magic.

    Stone/Paper/Scissor was also just an example. The more variety/viablo options you have, "Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock" will automatically happen, since something will be stronger against mages, while something else will be stronger against warriors etc.

    +1

    I personally like rock, paper, scissor fights. Having counters to every build brings diversity.

    I hate how most mmos try to "balance" everything to be fair. What ultimately happens is what we have experienced already in LOA.

    Knee jerk reactions from developers nerfing builds into the ground. On the simple premise that other people don't have the skill or desire to overcome those builds.

    Sadly, everyone wants to win and win easily. So they cry on the forums until developers make "easy" happen.
  • OuijaOuija Canada
    edited April 5
    Cookie cutter builds in an open world Mmorpg sandbox take away from the character creation and skill system. Combat needs to be skill based. "counters" yah I get it that's what manifestation and bandages are for. Currently any class can heal some better than others depending on the situation. the creation of a Heal / Tank / Dps / Support system "meta" would take away from diversity. I know im not the only one who hates being "top of meta" only to have it changed by the next patch and hafto changeup just to be a viable teammate on the field.

    I currently think the insta bandage needs a rework and should be a channel with the heal at completion. Similar to uo wheres the speed of the heal was reliant on a stat and %health / Vigor

    for example

    Rogue build - fast but smaller heals

    Brawler Build - Meadium heal / Medium timing

    Tank buid - Long wait / Large heal.
  • SoapSoap United States
    Mages can be pretty well controlled with a Piercer who’s got poison and a bleed weapon. There ARE counter builds already. I think the lack of power for pure fighters is that you pretty much require 3 stats (fighter) vs 2 as a mage.

    Warriors need strength, agility, and con. It leaves very little room for Wisdom and let’s face it, Wills pretty broken last I played.

    Mages only need is intel and con. And intel not only boosts mana reserves it also boosts spell power. Strength and agility in 1. I don’t know how much it boosts it, though.

    So you can make a tanky fighter who never dies but deals little damage and/or has little stamina, or a Middle of the Road fighter who’s damage is subpar to a Mage.
  • OuijaOuija Canada
    edited April 8
    sounds like we need stats to go up to like 175
  • What leaves, the game unbalanced are the rogue, and ae and ends with the balance system stone paper scissors, sometimes think, who is ahead of this game has no planning, no matter where the game goes, that is either drop everything to the community servers, a pity the game has everything to go right, what is missing and content, and the guys know that dying outside the protection and losing their items is part of this game, and very crying in that generation. WOW << GAme
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