Ruleset 3 - Power to the Players

MograMogra US
edited November 2019 in General Discussion
The recent AMA shined some more light on the topic of Ruleset 3 and the Wilderness changes. What stuck out the most to me was the design for playing as a PK - particularly punishments for Murder.

What we know (sort of):
- When a PK Murders an Innocent, the Killer (if reported) gets their name broadcasted within the Local Region, along with an approximate location of the Murder.
- The PK is given a debuff (at this time, the length is unknown), preventing Fast Travel.
- The PK can lose Skill Points, the amount based on their Murder Count, IF their head is removed and turned in to a vendor at an Innocent Town.

For more info on Point 8:
https://www.legendsofaria.com/point-release-8-highlights-part-2/

According to the blog, the goal with this is to remove the “artificial restrictions” placed on players - simply for being a PK - prior to Ruleset 2 changes. However, my concern is that even though these restrictions have been lifted from the day to day PK lifestyle, they’re immediately reapplied after a Murder is committed.

I see these restrictions as 1) Far too penalizing, and 2) Focus too much on gameplay restrictions rather than survival and immersive gameplay.

I feel many would agree a healthy population of PK's would be around 10% of the total population, but what too many restrictions will - possibly - do, (using time played in Ruleset 1 as a reference) is either force Zerg PK groups, or eventually completely eliminate them from the game, as the risk will far outweigh the reward.

I believe the only way to balance the 2 sides is giving Innocents the means to mitigate their risks of being PK’d through. This can be done through - Items, Immersive Gameplay Features, an actual Guard Presence (not a Guard/Guarded Zone) - as well as Features to incentivize Criminals and Murderers to Steal/Murder focused targets.

What I feel won’t bring balance is returning to "Punishing PK's by Design". By this I mean punishing a PK for playing their role. The "artificial punishments" have not been removed, only the condition for when they are applied has been changed.

Instead of offering ways to adequately equip an Innocent player to survive in the Wilderness, the line of defense falls on the system itself - which only comes into effect when an Innocent is Murdered - as well as relying on harsh punishments that aim to prevent such risks from even being attempted.

——————————————

The issues surrounding PvP have always been blurred. While I understand the developers concerns for unrestricted PvP, I also have diffculty comprehening why they rely solely on an Automated Punishment System, rather than creating the Tools for us regulate PK's ourselves. The idea for P8 is not such a Tool - but an alteration of the previous punishments.

I have always felt Legends of Aria has a massive amount of potential. This is the type of game that will thrive on Player v Player made content, but the Tools have to be there for us to regulate OURSELVES.

Comments

  • "When a PK Murders an Innocent, the Killer (if reported) gets their name broadcasted within the Local Region, along with an approximate location of the Murder."
    Where did this information come from ? Nothing was officially said about it.
  • DominusDominus I always start my day with a Special K, for breakfast.

    "When a PK Murders an Innocent, the Killer (if reported) gets their name broadcasted within the Local Region, along with an approximate location of the Murder."
    Where did this information come from ? Nothing was officially said about it.

    Something to that effect was mentioned in the reddit AMA.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/ds4o4m/i_am_derek_supreem_brinkmann_project_lead_for/f6n9xov/
  • Yes, all this was gathered from the AMA as mentioned, as well as directly following that via LoA discord and Miphon mentioned there would be a Fast Travel debuff for PK’ing but the details were not explained. Search Miphon in LoA General - Tuesday Nov 5 5:50PM for reference. I don’t know how to drop SS in here.

    Also, this isn’t a rag on CS. I’m just concerned this is going to go down the same path we did with PK’s before. Limiting mobility as punishments instead of adding new features for Innocents to protect themselves.
  • Mogra said:

    The recent AMA shined some more light on the topic of Ruleset 3 and the Wilderness changes. What stuck out the most to me was the design for playing as a PK - particularly punishments for Murder.

    What we know (sort of):
    - When a PK Murders an Innocent, the Killer (if reported) gets their name broadcasted within the Local Region, along with an approximate location of the Murder.
    - The PK is given a debuff (at this time, the length is unknown), preventing Fast Travel.
    - The PK can lose Skill Points, the amount based on their Murder Count, IF their head is removed and turned in to a vendor at an Innocent Town.

    For more info on Point 8:
    https://www.legendsofaria.com/point-release-8-highlights-part-2/

    According to the blog, the goal with this is to remove the “artificial restrictions” placed on players - simply for being a PK - prior to Ruleset 2 changes. However, my concern is that even though these restrictions have been lifted from the day to day PK lifestyle, they’re immediately reapplied after a Murder is committed.

    I see these restrictions as 1) Far too penalizing, and 2) Focus too much on gameplay restrictions rather than survival and immersive gameplay.

    I feel many would agree a healthy population of PK's would be around 10% of the total population, but what too many restrictions will - possibly - do, (using time played in Ruleset 1 as a reference) is either force Zerg PK groups, or eventually completely eliminate them from the game, as the risk will far outweigh the reward.

    I believe the only way to balance the 2 sides is giving Innocents the means to mitigate their risks of being PK’d through. This can be done through - Items, Immersive Gameplay Features, an actual Guard Presence (not a Guard/Guarded Zone) - as well as Features to incentivize Criminals and Murderers to Steal/Murder focused targets.

    What I feel won’t bring balance is returning to "Punishing PK's by Design". By this I mean punishing a PK for playing their role. The "artificial punishments" have not been removed, only the condition for when they are applied has been changed.

    Instead of offering ways to adequately equip an Innocent player to survive in the Wilderness, the line of defense falls on the system itself - which only comes into effect when an Innocent is Murdered - as well as relying on harsh punishments that aim to prevent such risks from even being attempted.

    ——————————————

    The issues surrounding PvP have always been blurred. While I understand the developers concerns for unrestricted PvP, I also have diffculty comprehening why they rely solely on an Automated Punishment System, rather than creating the Tools for us regulate PK's ourselves. The idea for P8 is not such a Tool - but an alteration of the previous punishments.

    I have always felt Legends of Aria has a massive amount of potential. This is the type of game that will thrive on Player v Player made content, but the Tools have to be there for us to regulate OURSELVES.

    TOTALMENTE de acuerdo contigo.
  • Deadmau5Deadmau5 ...
    edited November 2019
    Ok, I hate random pks but I am going to say losing 5 points in a GM skill on an official server... What crack pipe are the devs here smoking? I never GM a single skill on an official server cause I got a life BRO! To think they could lose those last 5 points ... We will have a bunch of murder monkeys who buck the system by only killing 1 person per day to avoid the red flag and skill loss murder counts should be perm
  • Power to the people *fist pump* black panth....

    Wrong forums, my bad!
  • Deadmau5 said:

    Ok, I hate random pks but I am going to say losing 5 points in a GM skill on an official server... What crack pipe are the devs here smoking? I never GM a single skill on an official server cause I got a life BRO! To think they could lose those last 5 points ... We will have a bunch of murder monkeys who buck the system by only killing 1 person per day to avoid the red flag and skill loss murder counts should be perm

    I almost feel this would be a success in some people’s opinion. If PK’s only commit 1 Murder per Character per 24 Hours, that is. But that’s what I mean when I say artificial restrictions aren’t the answer. They weren’t the first go around, I don’t see how this is any different. Being a PK Character should be a completely different game experience than playing an Innocent. The difference should NOT only be noticed AFTER the Murder is committed.
  • edited November 2019
    There's no great mystery as to how to make this work. You can't have PK's and carebears exist and be happy on the same server. You need separate PvP and PvE servers. Holy crap, EQ figured this out 20 years ago. WoW has always done it with great success. EVE is the closest thing I can think of where both types play together, but it's an anomaly, and still has a very large high sec area. It boggles my mind that crazy developers are still trying to make both kinds of players satisfied on the same server. Not that any of this probably matters now, considering the state of the game. Way too late.
  • I don’t see this game attracting the typical MMO Crowd that exists in games like WoW and ESO.

    There’s a community of players who like the risk. Meaningless death is boring for many of us - even if all you really lose is armor/weapons/minimal amount of gold.

    That said, while we like the risk, the punishments for being an evil character are questionable, and that’s what I’m more concerned with.
  • edited November 2019
    Yes, I think the skill loss amount seems a little extreme. On the flipside, it looks fun on paper though. This new head bounty system, you are basically giving Anti-PK's an alternative bonus to gaining skill points by doing PvP versus grinding PvE, which is kinda cool. But no real reward for PKing other then having fun with the playstyle and PK culture. What "Tools" would you propose for the Anti-PK community versus these automated punishments? I don't really understand what you mean by items and features. Need something more detailed and solid to understand what you mean.
  • @JaceWarde

    I originally listed a bunch of ideas but the post became extremely long and so I edited a lot out. But I was thinking, instead of creating a system that punishes players, why not create defensive systems?

    For instance, Guard Towers are imo, underutilized in the game. It makes perfect sense to place guard posts throughout the land, protecting your resources, defending areas where undead run rampant, near bandit areas, and along the roads.

    In the original guarded areas from Ruleset 1, Guard Towers would populate much of the land acting as a mostly safe area if pursued by a Criminal, but the Guards shouldn’t be invincible. Beyond the Gated Area, Guard Towers would only be on the roads protecting travelers.

    Besides Guard Towers, I think they could also be used to “protect” areas like Fremen Quarry, Brecca Mines, and most other Major mines.

    There could be a Gate at these mines entrances, with 4-5 Guards, and the Gate would be destroyable. If someone attacked the Guards at the entrance, an NPC would go alert players in the mines after 3 minutes, and after 5 minutes to players in Cities within that region. Criminals could also try to sneak past the Guards by picking their pockets and opening the Mine Gate that way.

    No one can Portal in or out at any time, and the Guards would respawn after 10 minutes.

    I also think there should be new areas that are for lumberjacks that could work in this same way, offering some protection for lumberjacks.

    For solo players, I think an option to hire Guards would be good. You could hire them only at designated areas and they would only defend in those areas. They could charge by the hour, and you could only hire from the Township you’re a citizen of. So if you’re a Pyros Citizen you could only hire the Guards protection if in Southern Rim, etc.

    There could be Scout NPC’s who wander the roads and Wilderness, hidden from Criminals. They’ll report any Criminals who have passed within range over the past 15 minutes. If the Scout NPC witnesses a Murder, they will alert all players who pass by them, and they’ll (the players) be told of the Murder and where it was reported - NO Region-wide text alerts - all info comes from in-game sources. NPCs who witness Murders instantly report the Murderer and a Count of Murder is applied to the PK’er.

    As for items, I figured these could emulate Citadels plans for PK punishments, but in a way that feels like it’s part of the game and not an arcade-style, Text Notification.

    Rune of Detect Evil. Acts like Ward: Evil, and sold by Inscriptionists. Placing 1 will try to detect Criminals/Murderers within 1 screen length. Placing a 2nd will connect the 2 like a tripwire, attempting to detect Evil Presences who cross over the Ward Line. You could place as many as you like, and could form a box around yourself even.

    Rune of Vigilance. This could be an item you use once per death, and consumed on death, to send an SOS. You’d buy these from Mage NPCs.

    Players who are murdered while holding a RoV instantly grant a Murder Count to their killer, and trigger an NPC to alert the City of that region of the Murder and the Murderers name.

    Players who have a RoV in their possession, and are in the region, are IMMEDIATELY notified by the NPC Mages of the Murder. These Mages will also try to interdict any attempts by the Murderer(s) to use Fast Travel (of any kind) for as long as they remain in that region.

    Once the Murderer(s) leave the region, a 1 hour timer will reset their Wanted status with the Mages of the region that the crime was committed in.

    If interdicted, the Murderer(s) will likely be killed as they will be pulled into the Mages Sanctum of an Innocent Town. This will result in being unable to retrieve their corpse, making it a truly risky decision to use Fast Travel while Wanted, but not in a way that feels like you’re being punished, instead - hunted.

    If a player uses a RoV on themself OR has one in their possession, and then commits a Crime or Murders, their location is revealed every minute by the Mages until they leave the region, drop the RoV, or die.

    *Dropping an RoV destroys it.*

    Criminals and Murderers could use this item to set traps and ambushes for Anti-PK’s.

    Reporting a Crime/Murder.
    If you don’t have an RoV and want to report a Murder, talk to any Guard. They will send a messenger to report the Murder to the City after 1 minute, and then the Murderer gets 1 Murder Count. Witnesses can also report Murders this way OR use a RoV and target the Murderer, destroying the RoV in the process.

    Punishments for Murdering. Current skill loss idea is good, imo. I’d be ok if something like that happened for everyone upon death, tbh. Aside from that, NO Region-Wide text alerts; all info on Murderers comes from NPC’s, other players, and Runes of Vigilance. NO 100% Restricted Fast Travel, the option to use it is there, but the risk that the Mages could interdict you requires you to carefully decide what your next move will be.

    Murderers who are Wanted in Barren Lands/Black Forest cannot enter Neutral Towns until their Wanted Status is gone, however, being far away from the Guarded Lands means your chance of interdiction is less. Murderers will have the option to Bribe the Guards at Oasis/Outpost to remove their Wanted Status after 1 hour of being Wanted.

    Item-Tracking. Any item that is willingly dropped OR traded by a Criminal or a Murderer, will be flagged as an “Illicit Item”. An Innocent player attempting to pick up or be traded the item will be prompted a warning saying:

    “This item does not bare the official mark of the “Celador Trading Company” and thus is flagged as illegal. Disregarding this warning will flag me as a Criminal, and the Guards may confiscate this item. If this item is on me while being searched, I will be charged a fine.”

    — To deny the item you’d click “Deny item. (NO Criminal Status obtained)”
    — To accept the item you’d click “Accept item. (Criminal Status Obtained)”
    — This warning can be toggled on/off

    Players who are Criminals can be stopped by any Guard in any Town and be searched. Players searched by Guards and found with “Illicit Items” will be; charged a fine, the “Illicit Item” will be confiscated, and their Criminal Status will be extended - they WILL be allowed to enter the Town

    Refusing to be searched will extend the time of the players Criminal Status, and the Guards will refuse you entry to the Town for 24 hours (reduces while offline). Criminal Status debuff will not decay while “Illicit Items” are in a players possession.

    This way, any player, or alt of a PK, cannot provide aid without receiving some share of Criminality.



    Extending the distance that Nameplates show up for Criminals.

    Adding new saddles that prevent dismounts, or slows, or stuns.

    Adding multiple entrances/exits to dungeons, mines, caves, etc.

    Adding the ability to craft traps and barricades.
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