Bounty System Feedback

htd61390htd61390 usa
edited October 27 in Feedback & Suggestions
I think the skill scroll bounty system is overly complicated and my proposed bounty system (https://forums.legendsofaria.com/discussion/11914/bounty-system#latest) would be better. However, I have been trying to get inside the head of the person who came up with this idea and I think I understand why--and it is clever. I think you guys basically tried to implement a semblance of my system but didn't like slapping on a standardized $ per murder count, which is understandable. You elected to have skill scrolls instead allow for to be marketable thus creating a player driven market for the skill replacement (which is kinda buying off the debuff).

The main issue with this system is that it can be abused. In my system it is a net zero or deficit system and the only variable is $. It cannot be abused or generate wealth. In your system it incentivizes afk macro-ing and I could farm my mage's head infinitely and then sell the scrolls. People who engage in afk macro-ing are winners and the people who do not are losers. Any good system should not incentivize behavior that you don't want. I don't think this will be a huge problem because of the 20 minute buffer time but it still is not ideal. I ultimately think the skill scroll system is as I previously stated unnecessarily complicated but MAYBE it is worth it in order to create a player driven economy to buy back the skills that were loss. As skill scrolls have not hit test server there are a lot of other items that I see to be problematic but I'll wait to speak to those points until I have tested. But in order for this to work I think the following items need to be addressed:

1) If instead of putting 1p per murder count or something as I proposed and using skill scrolls -- then shouldn't there be a more or less 'net' outcome so that you can repurchase the skills that you lost? If I lose .5 in 5 different skills, then I would think that the desired result would be to be able to purchase 5 scrolls on the market to replace the lost skills. There would always be a scroll deficit if you are giving 1 scroll out despite however many skill amounts you lose and that would inflate the price point of the scrolls a lot, which exacerbates the problem of being able to farm/generate wealth/abuse the system. It also is an incomplete system as I imagine you want it to be in respect to being able to pay money to remove the debuff via a player driven economy.

2) I think this might be in the works but not sure. The only way that it'll be feasible to do this effectively is to have a central market hub. No one is going to walk around to a million vendors to get the exact scrolls in the amounts they need to replace the skill loss. That is a lot of work in and of itself and afterall we play to have fun--to play. I don't play video games to work. So if there is a central basically market place where you can buy the scrolls you want and whoever posted the scrolls to it would receive the money then that would alleviate that problem.

Comments

  • edited October 27
    Dont overcomplicate things man.

    Quote: ...I could farm my mage's head infinitely and then sell the scrolls...

    In order to prevent any kind of abuse, adjust the skill scrolls to 1/3 of the lost skill. Since skills can be re-gained 3x faster, we come to a nice and easy "net zero" there. Example: Red loses 0.3 Manifestation. Blue receives 0.1 Manifestation Skill Scroll.

    BTW I already hate the inflationary usage of "net zero" these days, lol

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    BTW2: Let me (CrimsonSea) transfer to Ethereal Moon. THX
  • htd61390htd61390 usa
    edited October 27
    @Tuckazor I'm not over complicating things. I'm approaching this intelligently. In fact I'm trying to simplify it--the skill scroll bit is what is over complicating the bounty system. A direct bounty to $ system is much more straight forward. And I started the net zero buzz; it is fantastic and intrinsically balanced. Throwing it around as you did in your post is why it is annoying. There are many ways in which your suggestion is not net zero. It is only net zero in respect to one variable (skill gain), not the entire equation.
  • Tuckazor said:

    Dont overcomplicate things man.

    Quote: ...I could farm my mage's head infinitely and then sell the scrolls...

    In order to prevent any kind of abuse, adjust the skill scrolls to 1/3 of the lost skill. Since skills can be re-gained 3x faster, we come to a nice and easy "net zero" there. Example: Red loses 0.3 Manifestation. Blue receives 0.1 Manifestation Skill Scroll.

    BTW I already hate the inflationary usage of "net zero" these days, lol

    --------

    BTW2: Let me (CrimsonSea) transfer to Ethereal Moon. THX

    This is basically already in affect. You lose up to 0.6 in a skill but the skill scrolls will only give you a scroll for 0.1-0.3 and it is random. So it's not quite 1/3 all the time but if you lose 0.6 Evocation and it creates a 0.1 skill scroll in evocation then that is 1/6th of the original skill lost.
  • htd61390 said:

    @Tuckazor I'm not over complicating things. I'm approaching this intelligently. In fact I'm trying to simplify it--the skill scroll bit is what is over complicating the bounty system. A direct bounty to $ system is much more straight forward. And I started the net zero buzz; it is fantastic and intrinsically balanced. Throwing it around as you did in your post is why it is annoying. There are many ways in which your suggestion is not net zero. It is only net zero in respect to one variable (skill gain), not the entire equation.

    So, in theory, your system sounds simple. In practice, I don't think it is any less complicated than the skill scroll system. However, I do agree that it could potentially be exploited but i'd like to test it out to see just how feasible that will actually be once it hits exp. In my opinion, the best thing to do is to enforce more strict AFK macro detection. Additionally, the only skills this is actually doable on are things that don't require you to hit a mob. I suggest they change all offensive spells to only gain when hitting mobs just as they do melee.
  • htd61390 said:

    There are many ways in which your suggestion is not net zero.

    Happy to hear those "many ways". Please specify.

    If a red loses: 0.3 manifestation, 0.3 healing, 0.3 vigor..
    He can then re-train those skills up at a 3 times faster rate.
    If the player that chopped the reds head receives now 1/3 of the lost skills value as a reward, it would be 0.1 skillscroll manifestation, 0.1 skillscroll healing, 0.1 skillscroll in vigor.
    So the trade off is 0.3 skill lost in exchange for 0.1 skill scroll created. If the red player doesnt want to train the skills, he will need to purchase 3x 0.1 skill scrolls. If he wants to train, he will spend less time and mats for doing so.

    If those numbers lack and one really wants to make it an even balance, we need to agree on a value and then find a lowest common multiple of numbers given.


  • Drac Dreiraeth said:

    This is basically already in affect. You lose up to 0.6 in a skill but the skill scrolls will only give you a scroll for 0.1-0.3 and it is random. So it's not quite 1/3 all the time but if you lose 0.6 Evocation and it creates a 0.1 skill scroll in evocation then that is 1/6th of the original skill lost.

    Did they update the exp server with that already? Then ill need to check that. only tested with the skill loss and head chopping so far - without turning in the heads for rewards
  • htd61390htd61390 usa
    edited October 27
    @Tuckazor so the reason why I didn't specify 'the many ways' is because it is quite complicated. There are three overarching variables: skills, money, and time. The creation of skill scrolls alone generates money as they are marketable. So before we continue with many of the other sub-components of the primary variables (the interplay between them) that alone makes their bounty system not balanced aka not a net zero. Money is being generated period. You kill me, turn my head in, get scroll, sell scroll. I don't buy any scrolls and just remacro. Money has been created which makes the economy worse; if you go to my original proposition one of the positive externalities embedded in my prop is that it improves the economy via removing gold. My scenario is net zero because if the red doesn't pay the bounty on their head then the blue doesn't get money -- but that also means the red has to regrind. The money should always come from the red and then go to the blue.
  • edited October 27
    htd61390 said:

    The creation of skill scrolls alone generates money as they are marketable.

    I don´t agree there. Money is being "generated" once the authority responsible for money is printing money. You refer to a value those skillscrolls receive within the player driven economy which is completely different and doesn´t have anything to do with generating money. The money spend on skillscrolls is already existent, so it is a trade between one thing for another. If I mark an empty rune with "TUCKAZOR ROX" and someone wants to pay me 100plat for it, I didn´t generate money. Someone decides to give value to something <> generating money. That´s a general rule and on your intellectual journey you announced, I strongly suggest to read into that topic if it´s something you wanna dig into.


    The only flaw in the system at all is that you see an advantage for those who "afk macro" skills above those who play regularly. Since that is the case right now as well as 3 years before and maybe even in 3 years from now it has nothing to do with the skill loss system specifically but is a general debate I don´t want to participate at that point.

    Macroing is against the ToS - so if your fear for a potential skill scroll abuse (that isn´t even proven by facts) is simply that some people might break the rules in order to make a 10 gold Profit per 20 minutes by that - I guess we can both agree that their suggested system is pretty much better and has less flaws than anything else that has ever been implemented into the game, yet.

    Here are some things I forgot but I need to add to stay cool and up to date in here:
    net zero, net zero, net zero, net zero...

    BTW: Let me (CrimsonSea) transfer to Ethereal Moon. THX
  • @Tuckazor so I understand that it is hard to piece together cogent ideas. I'll try and put it simply. A bunch of scrolls coming out of nowhere is what? It is value. What type of value is it? Despite the fact that it is frustrating to describe patently obvious observations: At minimum people could give them away for free and a blue could just level up freely. As you need a simple model I will leave you with that point as a clear indicator that something of value is being generated.
  • @Tuckazor Discord:
    The balance of the economy is a trade off between time and resources. If I grind 2 hours and get .5 slashing, how much gold could I have received during that? If I am given a .5 slashing scroll, that has an amount valued at the resources that could be gathered at that time
    so again, it is a matter of liquidity
    it is an asset and not in the most liquid form
    it is money though
    because it is time
    these sort of scenarios are the interplay between the three variables: time, money, and skills
  • htd61390 said:

    @Tuckazor so I understand that it is hard to piece together cogent ideas. I'll try and put it simply. A bunch of scrolls coming out of nowhere is what? It is value. What type of value is it? Despite the fact that it is frustrating to describe patently obvious observations: At minimum people could give them away for free and a blue could just level up freely. As you need a simple model I will leave you with that point as a clear indicator that something of value is being generated.

    Very one sided. Apart from your behavior to act very disparage here and on discord, I try to keep it straight and not go that route. I find it more or less healthy if people treat others on a fair way. Might be a good time invest to reconsider your behavior in between the time you protect your position...


    Money is being generated once you kill a mob. the system stocks the mob with a pile of 10 gold and I loot that 10 gold. The system created 10 gold.

    Items are being generated once you kill a mob. the system stocks every 10th mob with a pile of snow and you loot that pile of snow. The system created a pile of snow.

    I killed 10 mobs and got 100 gold. You killed 10 mobs and got 100 gold plus a pile of snow. I want to buy your pile of snow for 100 gold - cause I give that pile of snow a personal value which I fix at 100 gold. I end up with a new pile of snow and zero gold, you got 200 gold now.
    After a day you come tell me "I got another pile of snow". I urgendly need that pile of snow as well but I aint got money left to purchase.

    The pile of snow can have a function or not. It remains a pile of snow. It has a value based on the principles of a player based economy. The value may be null if there is no demand for an item at all.

    You can now loot 100 piles of snow and argue that the counter value based on the last trade that happened would be a total of 10000. But at the moment you looted 100 piles of snow, the system didn´t generate a single thing besides 100 piles of snow itself - and not a bit of money.

    What you mean - and there I guess you might have been very unlucky with your usage of terminology - is that by looting the 100 piles of snow you get a better chance (greater than zero) to be able to trade VS any countervalue which is most likely the liquid currency "gold". So what you get is a chance to earn something.

    Why does that matter?

    It all goes back to my initial statement which is I don´t see a need to discuss all of this at all. Their system is fine as it is. There is no other abuse than the abusal of macroing afk. If someone does it, he acts against a ToS which is already being punished by a softban followed by a perma ban.
    If people think it´s worth to mass produce skillscrolls - ok. If CS wants to do something additionally against that, they can put multi clienting for that purpose on the Black List in their ToS as well. That´s it and it´s pretty simple, isn´t it?.


    You´ve made a doc with an idea about a system. Did I like the idea of a money sink you provided? No. Does it matter? no. I still applaud for that. I actually applaud for all of the community members that hand in docs of their suggestions like every week. I even more applaud to those that don´t just try to make their things happen but have an open ear to listen and respectfully discuss with others.

  • @Tuckazor so let's not get away from what we were discussing. what was being discussed is the totality of the net zero aspect of the system. i was responding to the fact that it is not a net zero system even though it could be made to be in one respect -- skills. that is what led us on this tangent.
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