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Archery Dead?

So this is my experience test driving the archery changes.
As background, I'm a tamer archer, with GM archery and vigor with 45 str/dex.
My character is used for PVE, and this is what I'm most familiar with, however I will touch on PVP a bit.

In regards to estimates of damage, I do not have room to fit marshall prowess, so take these numbers with a grain of salt. However if you also cannot fit that skill, you should have a similar damage experience.

So, here is a list of things I noticed post patch.

1. My bow damage percentage is roughly half of what it was before.
2. No accuracy stat on my bow, but I'm not sure I noticed an accuracy drop so this may be moot.
3. All attacks with the bow consume stamina, but none of them are "special"
4. There are no archery Weapon skills. (No power attack, no rapid fire, no Wound)
5. There are two modes (Q - single shot) and (E - auto attack)
6. A reload castbar is initiated after each shot where you are essentially hamstrung/snared.
7. All archer "skills" have been removed (Stunshot, Hamstring, Hunters Mark), you can potentially use other skills though.

Impressions:
So I can fire off a shot, at will.
Its neat, but then i'm snared for 8 seconds (warbow). My damage is more than halved as well.
I have no special weapon skills, further dropping my ability to burst damage a dangerous mob, or stop it from healing.
Firing is not fast enough, even with timing, to consistently interrupt spells.

Essentially if you chain fire your bow, which is what you'd want to maximize your DPS (which is more important than ever without weapon skills). You are essentially snared 99% of the time.
I've never felt less mobile, and more vulnerable as an archer.
This really affects PVE, as you really need to pluck away at those dangerous mobs, but now you cannot outrun them.

In PVP, I cant see how this is viable.
Mage is a non-starter. Archers do not have any burst DPS now, and if a mage were ever to be in danger a teleport and heal, then return to the fight... An archer would be ill equipped to hunt them down, and they could easily out heal us through any hamstring or dart, and it seems they have even more damage now.

A melee character will have no snare between swings, their normal attacks do not consume stamina, and they can deliver powerful blows in exchange for stamina. Additionally any "archer" abilities that you may have had that were different and could have potentially granted you an edge, have been removed. They have every tool you have, and more, plus unrestricted movement and free auto attacks.

Whats been your experience with the new archery changes?

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Comments

  • ZaphieonZaphieon Philippines
    I was excited to make an archer bard.... but yeah unless they overhaul this extremely this is the WORSE archer setup in anygame I have ever seen. as far as your bow's go this happen to all weapons.. they nerfed everything crafted, removed the +acc and half the % max % now is only 50% - you only can get higher with the new amazing * cough * enchanting system. which if your lucky and get very rare essences after turning in 100's' of crafting orders you may possibly get "lucky" again, and get a very nice weapon.. or get unlucky and get a weapon that is still less effective then before then patch..

    This Patch Nerfed: Crafting, Crafting items, Crafting orders, Archers, Housing ( merchant item limits ) and gave us a shit enchanting system with a shit bard system.. lol... the steam customers are going to be the final nail in this game for sure after the launch.
  • MofakaMofaka United States
    Ohh, and comparing archery to other melee abilities.
    I forgot to mention 2 more things.

    Melee not only gets better burst damage, due to weapon skills, but also can prevent me from healing with Mortal Strike.
    This puts me at a potion disadvantage as well, as I must clear this status.

    Not to mention, in exchange for the great and many benefits of archery over melee..
    I must fill my inventory with heavy arrows.
  • ZaphieonZaphieon Philippines
    maybe they just wanted to get rid of archery lol
  • NecroNecro Azure
    Yes, it's a dead skill atm. Tamer mage is now my tamer build.
  • I believe it had to do with nerfing the archer tamer. They mentioned how OP that build was in the last Q and A.
  • edited August 6
    You're not snared for 8 seconds while reloading the warbow. I just tested it and it takes 4 seconds to reload.

    For making such a wild exaggeration here, I can't believe any of your other impressions or conclusions.
  • MofakaMofaka United States
    Teufel said:

    I believe it had to do with nerfing the archer tamer. They mentioned how OP that build was in the last Q and A.

    As a Tamer/Archer, I understand why they think the build is powerful.
    From my perspective, as someone who worked up taming post skill gain nerf. The work necessary for tamer makes all other skills seem trivial, the skill point investment is also substantial.
    I think it should be powerful in PVE, and I agree that in PVP it shouldn't be the Meta.
    They could have solved this in other ways, without wrecking Archery.

    It really seems like this patch was an attack on build diversity as a whole.
    Its almost to the point where they should dump skills, have us select a class, and then level to 100 like any other MMO. Because that's about as much freedom I think we have now.
  • MofakaMofaka United States
    Skylion said:

    You're not snared for 8 seconds while reloading the warbow. I just tested it and it takes 4 seconds to reload.

    For making such a wild exaggeration here, I can't believe any of your other impressions or conclusions.

    Maybe I didnt do a good job of counting the seconds...
    I'll get out a timer and check, also keep in mind that reload speed is affected by Dexterity.
    This is how it goes...
    You fire..
    Reload is immediately initiated and you are completely snared.
    As soon as bar completes, you fire again
    Reload is immediately initated and you are completely snared.
    This means if you are "auto attacking" as before, you are virtually permanently snared.

    I was not attempting to mislead, I really dislike the playstyle.
    I do not feel mobile.
    This was an attempt to give my impression of the system as it is today.

    Whats been your experience Skylion?
    Do you see your damage lowered? How do you feel about the loss of all bow weapon skills?
    Have you tried any PVP to see how bow performs, or tackled any of the creatures that were maybe on the difficult side but doable prior?
  • Mofaka said:

    Skylion said:

    You're not snared for 8 seconds while reloading the warbow. I just tested it and it takes 4 seconds to reload.

    For making such a wild exaggeration here, I can't believe any of your other impressions or conclusions.

    Maybe I didnt do a good job of counting the seconds...
    I'll get out a timer and check, also keep in mind that reload speed is affected by Dexterity.
    This is how it goes...
    You fire..
    Reload is immediately initiated and you are completely snared.
    As soon as bar completes, you fire again
    Reload is immediately initated and you are completely snared.
    This means if you are "auto attacking" as before, you are virtually permanently snared.

    I was not attempting to mislead, I really dislike the playstyle.
    I do not feel mobile.
    This was an attempt to give my impression of the system as it is today.

    Whats been your experience Skylion?
    Do you see your damage lowered? How do you feel about the loss of all bow weapon skills?
    Have you tried any PVP to see how bow performs, or tackled any of the creatures that were maybe on the difficult side but doable prior?
    Honesty is critical to credible criticism. You say in one sentence that warbow reloads take 8 seconds and that your damage is roughly halved. But warbow reloads actually take 4 seconds (exactly half as long as what you said), so how can I believe your statement about archery's damage being roughly halved? Or anything else you've said that isn't plain fact (such as what the q and e abilities now are)?

    You take issue with reloads snaring you. I don't understand why. Before this patch, "reloading" actually required that you stand still. You couldn't fire on the run (without an ability) and each time you moved it reset the attack speed cooldown (which is the same thing as a reload).

    So where before you had to stand still, now you get to walk. This is an improvement. The one annoyance I can see is that now you don't get a choice as to whether or not you reload; after firing you are forced to reload immediately, which slows you to walking speed.

    Now back to your point about damage: it is lowered (I can't say by how much) but of course it's lowered.You even acknowledged why at the start of your post: you don't have the new Martial Prowess skill that is required to augment melee and ranged damage. This was added for balance, and was necessary: before you could be both a top-tier archer and a top-tier animal tamer, which was meta-defining and outperformed any other damage dealer. Now you can still be an archer-tamer, but you can't be both a top-tier archer and a top-tier tamer--you have to pick one to be top-tier in, and the other to supplement it.
  • MofakaMofaka United States
    One of the reasons I made the post, and asked about what others have seen, is to find out if the damage reduction is purely the result of the Marshall Prowess rework.
    Its exactly why I highlighted the fact that I do not have the skill.

    We were told for instance, that damage gain from Strength and Vigor would be reduced, and placed into Marshall Prowess. So you would hope that damage would then remain neutral.
    Yet I've seen posts in discord where folks are claiming that damage is still lower, even with Marshall Prowess.

    One of the reasons I've repeatedly asked for the impressions of others, is to find out if Marshall Prowess restores archery's damage to its previous state.

    Lets be clear, you are creating a strawman of my post. I've highlighted several issues and you hammer away at the reload speed, which as I've said can also vary from player to player based on other factors like Dexterity.

    There are some serious concerns about balance, even from a pure archer standpoint.
    It really seems that in an effort to tackle the archer/tamer build they may have broken archer.

    Stamina consumption for normal attacks
    No special attacks, no mortal strike or burst damage abilities
    imposed snare during reload

    These are things that are going to affect balance heavily for the skill.

    So my question remains, is archery, in its current state dead?
    Has anyone tried killing something that was challenging before? How is it now?
    For instance, I'd say one of the more challenging but sometimes fatal encounters I'd do before was vile spiders. Is that still do-able for anyone with archery/healing?
  • edited August 6
    Mofaka said:


    We were told for instance, that damage gain from Strength and Vigor would be reduced, and placed into Marshall Prowess. So you would hope that damage would then remain neutral.
    Yet I've seen posts in discord where folks are claiming that damage is still lower, even with Marshall Prowess.

    No one has had the time to skill up Martial Prowess.
    Edit: I just realized that while this is technically true, people could easily have Martial Prowess at 100 because characters that had skill points in armor skills that have been removed were granted soul stones with equivalent skill in Martial Prowess.
    .
    Mofaka said:


    Lets be clear, you are creating a strawman of my post. I've highlighted several issues and you hammer away at the reload speed, which as I've said can also vary from player to player based on other factors like Dexterity.

    All archers are going to have high dexterity.
    .
    Mofaka said:


    Stamina consumption for normal attacks
    No special attacks, no mortal strike or burst damage abilities
    imposed snare during reload

    I already pointed out how before you had to stand still while reloading. Now you can walk. The only irritant is that you automatically reload after a shot and can't interrupt it.

  • Archers can not use Dart anymore? Just Vanish?
  • Opps - Vanish is for a Rouge. How does an archer complete the Fighter Quest?
  • JeffrJeffr United States
    Skylion said:


    You take issue with reloads snaring you. I don't understand why. Before this patch, "reloading" actually required that you stand still. You couldn't fire on the run (without an ability) and each time you moved it reset the attack speed cooldown (which is the same thing as a reload).

    So where before you had to stand still, now you get to walk. This is an improvement. The one annoyance I can see is that now you don't get a choice as to whether or not you reload; after firing you are forced to reload immediately, which slows you to walking speed.

    This is wrong. Before the patch you had to stand still to *fire* the arrow. But you could run around while it was on the reload timer, stop for a split second and it would fire again. So you could move while your arrow was "reloading" before as long as you stopped before the hidden timer was up to fire again. Now you are stuck in a snared state the entire time you are shooting making you more immobile than you were before the patch.

    They just implemented too many negative changes at the same time. One or two of the changes would have been fine but all of them together has killed the skill. Lets list out all the changes:
    -They halved the bow damage and removed accuracy for the bows without enchanting them
    -They removed the bow affects Overpower, Double Shot, Bleed and Mortal strike which is a loss of damage and utility
    -They removed the archery skills Wound, Stun Shot, Hunter's Mark(Hamstring replaces Wound)
    -They make you snared while you are reloading so you cannot run around between shots(they claimed this was a buff because you can move and shoot but it's not as I explained above)
    -They added stamina cost per shot for basic attacks - you run out of stamina before being able to kill most beefy mobs other classes kill easily
    -You can't cast spells while nocking an arrow so you can't heal yourself or group mates as easily reducing surviveability

    I am a GM archery, martial prowess, vigor, healing, and high 80s manifestation character(lock picking as last skill) and I can't even clear past the first gargoyles room in corruption now because I run out stamina after killing a single gargoyle, can't cast greater heals on myself while fighting them, and have no ranged stun ability to keep distance. Meanwhile other characters are still able to clear all the way down and kill the demons solo. Before the patch I could clear down to the demons without issue and clear down and through almost all of the dungeons level 2's up to the champion rooms. It just seems like quite a nerf to a pure archer character.

    Jeffr
  • All appoints above are true.
    Sadly the skill is now Pointless.

    I paid 50g in the old cash system for Hunters Mark after doing countless awakenings and never getting a book, only to have it completely removed with no notice or reason given...what an absolute Bullsh!t change.
  • The 50% reduction is only like 1/6 of total bonuses from before and they raised base bow dmg. Warbow is now 31
  • Why reinvent the wheel? Treat archery like mage casting but consume stamina.

    Mage - begin cast - caster walks slowly during cast - cast complete - full mobility - tap target to release - rinse repeat

    Archer - nock arrow - archer walks while nocking- nock complete - full mobility - tap target to release - rinse repeat

    Also the majority of skills were in the game already so give archery it’s own profession and abilities...

    T1 - dash
    T1 - hamstring
    T2 - mortal strike
    T2 - bleed
    T2 - double shot
    T3 - hunters mark
    T3 - stun shot
  • No offense they removed any form of hybrid characters when they made skills like marital prowess and magical atonement requirements for melee or spell casting to be functional.

    The game literally boils down to holy trinity or nothing. Your a Rogue, Warrior or Mage, Sand Box Pfft.


  • Diamonas said:

    No offense they removed any form of hybrid characters when they made skills like marital prowess and magical atonement requirements for melee or spell casting to be functional

    I get the sense that hybrids will return when they fill in all of the “coming soon” in the professions - bard, tamer, etc...

    When that will be? Pick a time from now until never.

    Making t3 skills require gm was a good move, making the requirements 4x gm kills diversity. 400 points in anything equals full commitment to a “pure” build.
  • Death said:

    Diamonas said:

    No offense they removed any form of hybrid characters when they made skills like marital prowess and magical atonement requirements for melee or spell casting to be functional

    I get the sense that hybrids will return when they fill in all of the “coming soon” in the professions - bard, tamer, etc...

    When that will be? Pick a time from now until never.

    Making t3 skills require gm was a good move, making the requirements 4x gm kills diversity. 400 points in anything equals full commitment to a “pure” build.
    Yup
  • My archery/sneak character is useless for now. Hope they realize how unbalanced and messed up archery actually is- it is unplayable, including for PVE
  • Jeffr said:



    I am a GM archery, martial prowess, vigor, healing, and high 80s manifestation character(lock picking as last skill) and I can't even clear past the first gargoyles room in corruption now because I run out stamina after killing a single gargoyle, can't cast greater heals on myself while fighting them, and have no ranged stun ability to keep distance. Meanwhile other characters are still able to clear all the way down and kill the demons solo. Before the patch I could clear down to the demons without issue and clear down and through almost all of the dungeons level 2's up to the champion rooms. It just seems like quite a nerf to a pure archer character.

    Jeffr

    What's your stat distribution? I have 75 archery, 80 vigor/mp on my alt I made to try archery and have no problem chaining gargs with a short bow. Have never even been close to out of stamina. I cant see how our experiences are so different when you are GM.
  • edited August 12
    @Zaphieon Your idea of an archer bard is quite powerful. At GM musicianship and entertainment riddle of force basically increases your damage by 200% vs the debuffed target.

    I am not even GM archery yet and I am hitting for 110-130 per shot using a 36% shortbow. The target are lich lords. 50 str, 45 agi, 25 con (31 with jewelry).
  • @cs how hard would it be to make a timer that makes notching a bow take 2x as long while moving but normal time when standing still. So you RUN full speed but notch the arrow twice as slow. Instead of slowing our run speed. The ability to stop and shoot is great but the gimped speed is to big of a sacrifice. What you other archers think of this? Also no need for auto or single shot to get abilities back :)
  • VyrilVyril US
    edited August 12
    Archery is in a bad state. It's just not that fun anymore. And feels more clunky than before.

    Not being able to stop Auto-Fire without switching weapons is not intuitive. To "manually" shoot isn't very engaging really since it doesn't provide anything additional.

    I rather just be able to toggle Auto-Fire like before.

    (GM Archer)
  • That's what I'm saying. But you load your bow while running just takes longer so you can stop and shoot. B4 you stopped. Loaded. Fired
    Suggesting fire. Move but load slower. Fire
  • fibrosis said:

    @cs how hard would it be to make a timer that makes notching a bow take 2x as long while moving but normal time when standing still. So you RUN full speed but notch the arrow twice as slow. Instead of slowing our run speed. The ability to stop and shoot is great but the gimped speed is to big of a sacrifice. What you other archers think of this? Also no need for auto or single shot to get abilities back :)

    This is a good idea.
  • I am a Master Archer (95.9), and GM everything else (Healing, Hiding, Martial Prowess, Stealth and Vigor). The latest patch was touted to improve archery? If so, then why in the #&@* am I not liking the changes? IMHO Jeffr is absolutely correct. Being mobile after the shot is more important to me than being able to shoot while mobile. That is, shoot and run is no longer available. For me, shoot and walk hinders my effectiveness. I have access to top-of-the-line bows (some with enhancements). Yes, using a short bow vs. a war bow takes less time to re-load - but does less damage - especially w/o double shot (short bow) and Overdraw (Long Bow & War Bow).

    Bottom Line: I seldom use my archer anymore and I am deeply disappointed with these changes...

    P.S. If I was is a group with a 'Tank' may be this would be ok, however, going Solo (which is what I did most of the time is now a pain in the @$$.

    Fletcher
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    I also like @fibrosis idea
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