A group of old UOers, but new LoA players perspectives.

I used to talk about UO2 or something similar 15 years ago and slowly lost interest in the whole mmo genre as WoW clones crashed and burned year after year. Then I recently stumbled onto LoA and couldn't believe it, it really is, or at least trying to be the UO2 that never materialized so long ago. I forwarded a YT vid about it to some friends and 4 of them (3 of which are old UO vets) picked it up.

My friends and I were discussing LoA and UO the other night and if you, as we do, want LoA to be the long lost UO2, then lets take a look at some of the features that made UO so good. Lets try to get those features implemented into LoA. The game is an Early Access work in progress so now is the perfect time to offer our combined input.

1) Character Differentiation

Lujan said:
“When I played UO I wasn't a tank, a healer, DPS, or support. I was Lujan.”

I don't know who Lujan was but I always remembered this line because they summed it up and nailed it hard when they said this 10+ years ago on some forum. In UO your characters were unique. Characters with the exact same skill and stat build could still look drastically different. We remember being able to identify players just by looking at their characters on screen, no need to hit “Allnames”. The freedom for players to differentiate their characters from one another was a masterful element of UO that was accomplished in two ways: Skills/Stats and Gear/Decorative.

Skills and Stats
This is where UO and LoA both shine. Giving players the freedom to build characters how they want with a finite amount of skill and stat points is perfect.
Things LoA has done great:
Removed some of the “useless” skills in UO like begging, detect hidden, etc. Incorporated Resisting Spells into the Wisdom stat.
Split Magery into offense (Evocation) and utility (Manifestation) skills.
Beastmastery for the high end taming.

Things in LoA that are not so great:
Splitting the armor into skills.

“Wait a minute, they broke up Magery and that was a good thing but they broke up armor into skills and that is a bad thing?”
Answer: Yes and yes, here's why:

Breaking up Magery further differentiates players because it forces players to make a choice and denies players taking magic for the utilitarian purposes from having offensive magic capability. Breaking up armor into skills seems like it differentiates players because it also forces players to make a choice, but it is not that simple. There is more nuance to it than that of Magery because the type of armor can affect mana regen, agility, and appearance. The way it is now, you either wear Cloth (no skill), Light Armor skill, or Heavy Armor skill. This hurts player differentiation because it pigeon holes every player into one of 3 archetypes which is a complete contradiction of what the free build skills/stats system is designed for.

Maybe have one armor skill called Armor or Armored Defense and if you train it up you gain the most defense you can get out of any type of armor. Retain the limitations on mana regeneration and agility penalties etc. This will also leads into the next topic of Gear/Decorative for aesthetic differentiation for the player base.

Gear/Decorative
UO had various armor types and 6 separate pieces of armor for most suits (helm, gorget, chest, arms, gloves, legs), and a clothing overlay for robes, cloaks, sashes, tunics, not to mention several types of footwear and hats. All this and arguably most importantly the dyes and dye tubs, which were very cheap to buy from the tailor vendors. Using dyes on a dye tub brought up a UI of the full color spectrum plus light and dark allowing you to dye a tub the desired color. You could then use that dye tub indefinitely to color your items. That was an amazing amount of customization given to the players to differentiate themselves.

“This isn't a fashion runway its a PvP mmo!”

Right now all players in cloth look the same, all players in Light Armor look the same, all players in Heavy Armor look the same. 3 pieces of armor per suit and only penalties to mix sets, plus no clothing overlay is cripplingly limiting. Also there is virtually zero color to anyone. The only colors I have seen are a couple green cloaks and some RARE red or blue. No its not a fashion runway but it doesn't need to make everyone a monochrome clone either.

2) Crafting
From my experience thus far there are no reasons anyone would buy any weapon that is not either the worst they can find (for training) or the best they can find/afford for actual fighting. That leaves the vast bulk of crafted weapons undesirable garbage. Also the durability of weapons and armor is WAY to high. Items last too long creating a vast oversupply, so the price of the high end weapons drops to such a low point I don't know why someone would make a blacksmith tbh since it is so easy and cheap to buy high end gear.

Maybe have the different materials affect the weapon or armor in various ways. One type maybe has more durability. Another type can increase the duration or damage of the special abilities attached to it, etc.

3) Recall Spell
There is no recall like UO had, only Gate spell. Why not? It is all setup for it with runes and Mark spell etc. Have the Teleport spell take the place of Recall. Teleport in this game is useless anyhow as you can't even use it to cross a river. CS, by having no recall to move around, I assume you intend for people to travel through the gameworld but there is practically nothing in the gameworld which leads to my next topic.

4) The Gameworld
In UO wandering through the landscape could be just as adventurous as going to a dungeon. The fields and forests were populated with elementals, evil npcs, orcs, ratmen, ettins, skeletons, wraiths, liches, a whole myriad of enemies, not to mention other players. In LoA the landscape is EMPTY. There is the odd bandit, troll, or goblin. Thats it. Again, from my experience thus far there are no reasons to explore in the wilderness. There is NO ONE out there because there is no reason to be out there. LoA has the whole game bottled up in a handful of Dungeons and Mines.

I've read some of the pk topics on these forums regarding this point, especially about the mines. I agree it is like shooting fish in a barrel. In UO if a pk got you, that sucks, wrong place at the wrong time I guess. In LoA it is entirely different. You are forced to be at the wrong place, and it is just a matter of time because the pks patrol these locations. UO had a superior system in regards to this as well how every mountain textured location throughout the entire world could be mined for ores.

Don't be disingenuous about it, if you are killing miners you are doing it because its an easy kill easy rewards. I had reds on UO and sometimes I did the same thing around Minoc mountain. I wasn't looking for some epic PvP battle and you aren't either.

Point is, spread the game out CS. You created this world, fill it with all the monsters, ores, woods, etc. Give the players a reason to go out there and they will find the adventures and tales you are trying to provide for them.

5) Conclusion
All being said, even with the ripping on LoA etc. our group is enthusiastic about what has been built here. We understand as I said at the start it is an Early Access work in progress and we believe it could benefit immensely by adopting more of the systems UO had which imo are overlooked but were some of the best ever applied to an mmo.

You know as well as we do if LoA isn't truly ready for Steam launch it will be annihilated in the reviews and then there is no coming back and will slowly fade off.

Shelk
«1

Comments

  • +1
    I would like to see some of these implemented also.
  • +1 pretty on target review, hope devs read and act on all (at least some) of these points.
  • Shelk said:

    I used to talk about UO2 or something similar 15 years ago and slowly lost interest in the whole mmo genre as WoW clones crashed and burned year after year. Then I recently stumbled onto LoA and couldn't believe it, it really is, or at least trying to be the UO2 that never materialized so long ago. I forwarded a YT vid about it to some friends and 4 of them (3 of which are old UO vets) picked it up.

    My friends and I were discussing LoA and UO the other night and if you, as we do, want LoA to be the long lost UO2, then lets take a look at some of the features that made UO so good. Lets try to get those features implemented into LoA. The game is an Early Access work in progress so now is the perfect time to offer our combined input.

    1) Character Differentiation

    Lujan said:
    “When I played UO I wasn't a tank, a healer, DPS, or support. I was Lujan.”

    I don't know who Lujan was but I always remembered this line because they summed it up and nailed it hard when they said this 10+ years ago on some forum. In UO your characters were unique. Characters with the exact same skill and stat build could still look drastically different. We remember being able to identify players just by looking at their characters on screen, no need to hit “Allnames”. The freedom for players to differentiate their characters from one another was a masterful element of UO that was accomplished in two ways: Skills/Stats and Gear/Decorative.

    Skills and Stats
    This is where UO and LoA both shine. Giving players the freedom to build characters how they want with a finite amount of skill and stat points is perfect.
    Things LoA has done great:
    Removed some of the “useless” skills in UO like begging, detect hidden, etc. Incorporated Resisting Spells into the Wisdom stat.
    Split Magery into offense (Evocation) and utility (Manifestation) skills.
    Beastmastery for the high end taming.

    Things in LoA that are not so great:
    Splitting the armor into skills.

    “Wait a minute, they broke up Magery and that was a good thing but they broke up armor into skills and that is a bad thing?”
    Answer: Yes and yes, here's why:

    Breaking up Magery further differentiates players because it forces players to make a choice and denies players taking magic for the utilitarian purposes from having offensive magic capability. Breaking up armor into skills seems like it differentiates players because it also forces players to make a choice, but it is not that simple. There is more nuance to it than that of Magery because the type of armor can affect mana regen, agility, and appearance. The way it is now, you either wear Cloth (no skill), Light Armor skill, or Heavy Armor skill. This hurts player differentiation because it pigeon holes every player into one of 3 archetypes which is a complete contradiction of what the free build skills/stats system is designed for.

    Maybe have one armor skill called Armor or Armored Defense and if you train it up you gain the most defense you can get out of any type of armor. Retain the limitations on mana regeneration and agility penalties etc. This will also leads into the next topic of Gear/Decorative for aesthetic differentiation for the player base.

    Gear/Decorative
    UO had various armor types and 6 separate pieces of armor for most suits (helm, gorget, chest, arms, gloves, legs), and a clothing overlay for robes, cloaks, sashes, tunics, not to mention several types of footwear and hats. All this and arguably most importantly the dyes and dye tubs, which were very cheap to buy from the tailor vendors. Using dyes on a dye tub brought up a UI of the full color spectrum plus light and dark allowing you to dye a tub the desired color. You could then use that dye tub indefinitely to color your items. That was an amazing amount of customization given to the players to differentiate themselves.

    “This isn't a fashion runway its a PvP mmo!”

    Right now all players in cloth look the same, all players in Light Armor look the same, all players in Heavy Armor look the same. 3 pieces of armor per suit and only penalties to mix sets, plus no clothing overlay is cripplingly limiting. Also there is virtually zero color to anyone. The only colors I have seen are a couple green cloaks and some RARE red or blue. No its not a fashion runway but it doesn't need to make everyone a monochrome clone either.

    2) Crafting
    From my experience thus far there are no reasons anyone would buy any weapon that is not either the worst they can find (for training) or the best they can find/afford for actual fighting. That leaves the vast bulk of crafted weapons undesirable garbage. Also the durability of weapons and armor is WAY to high. Items last too long creating a vast oversupply, so the price of the high end weapons drops to such a low point I don't know why someone would make a blacksmith tbh since it is so easy and cheap to buy high end gear.

    Maybe have the different materials affect the weapon or armor in various ways. One type maybe has more durability. Another type can increase the duration or damage of the special abilities attached to it, etc.

    3) Recall Spell
    There is no recall like UO had, only Gate spell. Why not? It is all setup for it with runes and Mark spell etc. Have the Teleport spell take the place of Recall. Teleport in this game is useless anyhow as you can't even use it to cross a river. CS, by having no recall to move around, I assume you intend for people to travel through the gameworld but there is practically nothing in the gameworld which leads to my next topic.

    4) The Gameworld
    In UO wandering through the landscape could be just as adventurous as going to a dungeon. The fields and forests were populated with elementals, evil npcs, orcs, ratmen, ettins, skeletons, wraiths, liches, a whole myriad of enemies, not to mention other players. In LoA the landscape is EMPTY. There is the odd bandit, troll, or goblin. Thats it. Again, from my experience thus far there are no reasons to explore in the wilderness. There is NO ONE out there because there is no reason to be out there. LoA has the whole game bottled up in a handful of Dungeons and Mines.

    I've read some of the pk topics on these forums regarding this point, especially about the mines. I agree it is like shooting fish in a barrel. In UO if a pk got you, that sucks, wrong place at the wrong time I guess. In LoA it is entirely different. You are forced to be at the wrong place, and it is just a matter of time because the pks patrol these locations. UO had a superior system in regards to this as well how every mountain textured location throughout the entire world could be mined for ores.

    Don't be disingenuous about it, if you are killing miners you are doing it because its an easy kill easy rewards. I had reds on UO and sometimes I did the same thing around Minoc mountain. I wasn't looking for some epic PvP battle and you aren't either.

    Point is, spread the game out CS. You created this world, fill it with all the monsters, ores, woods, etc. Give the players a reason to go out there and they will find the adventures and tales you are trying to provide for them.

    5) Conclusion
    All being said, even with the ripping on LoA etc. our group is enthusiastic about what has been built here. We understand as I said at the start it is an Early Access work in progress and we believe it could benefit immensely by adopting more of the systems UO had which imo are overlooked but were some of the best ever applied to an mmo.

    You know as well as we do if LoA isn't truly ready for Steam launch it will be annihilated in the reviews and then there is no coming back and will slowly fade off.

    Shelk

    Perfect
  • NecroNecro Azure
    Yeah, pretty spot on tbo...
  • FiFi the Witch
    I'm fine with everything you mentioned, and hopeful that they are implemented into the game, except one little thing...

    Shelk said:

    3) Recall Spell
    There is no recall like UO had, only Gate spell. Why not? It is all setup for it with runes and Mark spell etc. Have the Teleport spell take the place of Recall. Teleport in this game is useless anyhow as you can't even use it to cross a river. CS, by having no recall to move around, I assume you intend for people to travel through the gameworld but there is practically nothing in the gameworld which leads to my next topic.

    Recall used to exist, but it was removed for some reason(s) unknown to me. They can just add that spell back, place whatever restrictions and improvements they desire upon it, and improve Teleport since I am part of the populace that makes regular use of the latter spell in dungeons and certain landscapes.

    I don't disagree with this one portion I quoted at all, but it is something I have been curious about myself for quite some time:

    Things in LoA that are not so great:
    Splitting the armor into skills.

    “Wait a minute, they broke up Magery and that was a good thing but they broke up armor into skills and that is a bad thing?”
    Answer: Yes and yes, here's why:

    Breaking up Magery further differentiates players because it forces players to make a choice and denies players taking magic for the utilitarian purposes from having offensive magic capability. Breaking up armor into skills seems like it differentiates players because it also forces players to make a choice, but it is not that simple. There is more nuance to it than that of Magery because the type of armor can affect mana regen, agility, and appearance. The way it is now, you either wear Cloth (no skill), Light Armor skill, or Heavy Armor skill. This hurts player differentiation because it pigeon holes every player into one of 3 archetypes which is a complete contradiction of what the free build skills/stats system is designed for.

    Maybe have one armor skill called Armor or Armored Defense and if you train it up you gain the most defense you can get out of any type of armor. Retain the limitations on mana regeneration and agility penalties etc. This will also leads into the next topic of Gear/Decorative for aesthetic differentiation for the player base.
    This is one little thing that puzzled me... since there aren't any armor skills in Ultima Online, armor types themselves had their own presence and identity in the form of possessing modifiers—mainly resistances, item properties/treasure effects, and how they affect magic users who relied on mana regeneration. Armor had its effect on resistances stripped away from them, excluding physical resistance since defense is physical resistance, and applied to Wisdom instead for a chance of resisting any type of magic damage by a static 50%, which may also be the case for Resisting Spells, they have nothing but their base defense which does not do much on its own without an armor skill correlative to that chosen armor set's type.

    Meditation and Focus are different here as well: Meditation is a prestige ability that significantly increases mana regeneration and Focus increases mana regeneration based on Channeling, and these two abilities are affected by armor with a type which is natural for Focus but a bit odd for Meditation since it was once an ability tied to Mystics; however, I'm completely fine with the way these two abilities function with armor, but I do wish Focus could get an itty-bitty buff—or Channeling itself.

    Now... about Mystics... As you mentioned, spells were split into three categories—offensive spells into Evocation, beneficial spells into Manifestation, and soon death and spirit magic into Necromancy, will they implement and split the spells Arcanists and Mystics possessed into Evocation and Manifestation? I see that they already have with one particular spell named Rock Bombardment—simply named Bombardment in Ultima Online—that belonged to Mystics, but my concern is balance and if all of these spells outside simple Magery being into these two or three categories—three since Arcanists had one death spell—will make them seem... haphazardly placed.

    Balance is a concern of mine since Mages will have access to a very large repertoire of spells at the cost of only 200 skill points, but who knows, it may not be as bad as I think it will be hence why I'm mentioning here for others to possibly share their insight.

    That's really all I've been pondering about regarding armor, resistances, and magic.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    PapaNoobs said:

    Perfect

    Get some netiquette please.

  • To the original post...Yes! Yes! A thousand times, yes!
  • ShelkShelk Canada
    Fi said:

    Recall used to exist, but it was removed for some reason(s) unknown to me. They can just add that spell back, place whatever restrictions and improvements they desire upon it, and improve Teleport since I am part of the populace that makes regular use of the latter spell in dungeons and certain landscapes.

    I would speculate that it was removed because the game is currently contained to a handful of locations and reds able to patrol and grief those areas more efficiently than they already do may start having serious consequences to the player base. Hence it further proves my argument that the game needs to be spread out over the landmass so you don't have these "fish in a barrel" bottlenecks. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with reds or PvP. Like I said in my op I had reds in UO I just think CS is playing with fire so to speak with the player base by setting up new players like lambs to a frustrating slaughter in these locals. Also I'm not "salty" because I got pk'd or something, I haven't been pk'd yet although I probably should have.

    One of the things LoA has done beautifully was fix the early problem UO had with the griefing of new players. In UO new players got killed as soon as they stepped out of town on the road or at the first dungeon entrance and lost everything. New players would have no way of acquiring the skills to get the gold to pay for equipment/reags to train the skills. They were stuck in a paradox which left no option other than to beg at the banks. No one really plays these games to be a beggar so they quit. LoA expanding the protected zones allows players to at least build up so they can take the losses that PvP will bring. Good job on that CS, but as of right now you didn't get rid of the grief bottlenecks, you kind of just pushed them down the line a bit.
    Fi said:

    This is one little thing that puzzled me... since there aren't any armor skills in Ultima Online, armor types themselves had their own presence and identity in the form of possessing modifiers—mainly resistances, item properties/treasure effects, and how they affect magic users who relied on mana regeneration. Armor had its effect on resistances stripped away from them, excluding physical resistance since defense is physical resistance, and applied to Wisdom instead for a chance of resisting any type of magic damage by a static 50%, which may also be the case for Resisting Spells, they have nothing but their base defense which does not do much on its own without an armor skill correlative to that chosen armor set's type.

    My UO days were early, I left soon after Trammel and way before they implemented all those resistances to armor and all the neon. I don't think they are going down that road with LoA and I hope they don't. It's obvious the armors and Resisting Spells with the Wisdom, its all still under construction. I think the early UO armor system is the best option. Heavy slows you down, no mana regen, some STR requirements, leathers having medium regen, no agility loss. They already have it set up somewhat like that except people can't mix and match for what is best for them because of the definitive skills.
  • FiFi the Witch
    edited April 13
    Shelk said:

    My UO days were early, I left soon after Trammel and way before they implemented all those resistances to armor and all the neon. I don't think they are going down that road with LoA and I hope they don't. It's obvious the armors and Resisting Spells with the Wisdom, its all still under construction. I think the early UO armor system is the best option. Heavy slows you down, no mana regen, some STR requirements, leathers having medium regen, no agility loss. They already have it set up somewhat like that except people can't mix and match for what is best for them because of the definitive skills.

    That's the issue with armor that I'm pondering: I have no idea what road they are going down with armor because of these armor skills, the bland armor themselves, and the fact that heavy armor formally affected the movement speed of its wearers, but they removed that penalty due to the adverse effects it caused in PvP which caused anyone wearing heavy armor to be easily caught and mowed down because of how slow they moved in addition to the penalty to their Stamina Pool.

    As for Resisting Spells, it wasn't obvious that it is has been incorporated into Wisdom because—now that I remembered what it precisely does—Resisting Spells does not affect direct damage spells. Resisting Spells was needed for lessening or nullifying the potency of spells that debilitate or decrease stats; therefore, if anything, Resisting Spells had been poorly incorporated into Will—"poorly" because it was not made clear what Will can nullify besides what the in-game description states, which is stuns, and what we discovered: poison and possibly slows from spells like Ray of Frost and Energy Bolt. Overall, Will is an ambiguous stat at the moment due to the lack of clarity.

    I'm consensus with you about armor and armor skills overall, but I do wish they had more of an identity on their own that isn't tied to armor skills correlative to each armor type. In regard to resistance, I'm fine with them not adding individual elemental resistances to armor, but I would not mind if armor gave stat boosts to Wisdom and Will, but for them to add Wisdom and Will to armor, they may have to adjust how both of those stats function since one point of Wisdom or Will is an 1.25% chance of spell damage reduction by 50% or an 1.25% chance of unknown CC and debilitation resistance outside stuns, poison, and slows—both 0% at 10 points of either stat.

    In addition, I would love for armor to have modifiers and item properties/treasure effects, but I think that love may become a reality with the upcoming Mythic PvE.

  • Gonads and StrifeGonads and Strife United Kingdom
    A thoroughly good post/thread, I could read this sort of thing all day.
    I hope the right pair of eyes see it.
  • All of this is great ideas. When I started playing I saw the game as it was and thought "Ya it could become something great when they add this stuff" a lot of the stuff you mention. I kept acting like LoA was just waiting to become a better game.

    Now not to sound like the "Rain on our parade guy" but judging by their feedback, vision board, and announcements. They won't be pulling any of these off. I hope they do and, I hope the devs see this. But their current game plan is about 180 degrees in the other direction of all this.
  • @Shelk

    As an oldschool UO player what do you think about the dread lord era, stat loss, and trammel?
  • ShelkShelk Canada


    Now not to sound like the "Rain on our parade guy" but judging by their feedback, vision board, and announcements. They won't be pulling any of these off. I hope they do and, I hope the devs see this. But their current game plan is about 180 degrees in the other direction of all this.

    If that is the case then it is a real shame. Not because what they are planning won't be decent but because those UO systems were just so great.

    I, like many of you, believe they are truly on the precipice of something great. They have borrowed so heavily from UO why stop now?

    This is the thing; I see that UO server up there. I don't want UO just reskinned. I expect something better tbh, its been 22 years since UO launched. LoA has the potential, it has the support of a community that cares (so far). CS needs to get it done.
  • FiFi the Witch

    Now not to sound like the "Rain on our parade guy" but judging by their feedback, vision board, and announcements. They won't be pulling any of these off.

    You rightfully sound more like a voice of reason to me since, well... it's easier to take a look at this thread for feedback regarding Mounted Combat and how it ended.

    As I said myself, it doesn't seem like any of the feedback is being recognized and considered, but they could be testing some of our ideas out without letting us know within their own test server—if I wanted to be optimistic.
  • ShelkShelk Canada
    Death said:

    @Shelk

    As an oldschool UO player what do you think about the dread lord era, stat loss, and trammel?

    Stat Loss
    I have no problem with reds being penalized with stat loss upon death.
    Here's why:

    When a red pks another player and loots them, they are essentially taking the time away that the pk'd player spent in acquiring the items that were looted. So it is only fair that when a red is killed they must pay in their own time retraining skills.

    A lot of the time a red (or their alt blues) will be wearing or using items that were looted that didn't belong to them in the first place and cost them nothing. Also reds generally pk WAY more than they are pk'd.

    Dread Lord Era and Trammel
    Cause and effect. The Dread Lord Era lead directly to the creation of Trammel. The new player paradox that I spoke about above was created by the savage (lol) beatdown of new players not able to build skills to get the gold to build the skills so they quit. Trammel was their answer to solve this problem and it did work. Unfortunately it was such a drastic move it forever altered the "vibe" of UO from that point on. The sense of danger was gone.

    LoA has a better solution, one that my friends and I had talked about for years; Expand protected zones enough to shield new players until they can get on their feet to absorb the losses.
  • +1 again!


  • Well Said!!! please look me up in game if you guild up! Farsea MacLeod
    My brother and I played UO back in the day and have been itching for a redo as we are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay older now and have time again to play :)
  • krisskriss vienna
    +1
  • ShelkShelk Canada
    Fi said:


    I'm consensus with you about armor and armor skills overall, but I do wish they had more of an identity on their own that isn't tied to armor skills correlative to each armor type. In regard to resistance, I'm fine with them not adding individual elemental resistances to armor, but I would not mind if armor gave stat boosts to Wisdom and Will, but for them to add Wisdom and Will to armor, they may have to adjust how both of those stats function since one point of Wisdom or Will is an 1.25% chance of spell damage reduction by 50% or an 1.25% chance of unknown CC and debilitation resistance outside stuns, poison, and slows—both 0% at 10 points of either stat.

    In addition, I would love for armor to have modifiers and item properties/treasure effects, but I think that love may become a reality with the upcoming Mythic PvE.

    The entire armor system in LoA seems to me a "stop gap" solution until they can flesh it out properly. That's totally fine since it is EA. Only time will tell how they proceed with it. I like your idea of adding wisdom or will to certain armors to help with resistances. It's a good concept to build on.

    Shelk
  • NecroNecro Azure
    You guys should really check out the community Legends of Ultima server. I resisted it for a really long time but recently moved over and I am having an absolute blast. As it seems like LoA is moving away from UO, Legends of Ultima is re-creating the best of it.
  • FiFi the Witch
    Necro said:

    You guys should really check out the community Legends of Ultima server. I resisted it for a really long time but recently moved over and I am having an absolute blast. As it seems like LoA is moving away from UO, Legends of Ultima is re-creating the best of it.

    I've been resisting it myself since I wanted to stay true to Legends of Aria, but I think I may check it out since I have nothing else to do in Legends of Aria aside from making a second Crafter.

    I wonder if the developers of Legends of Aria will take ideas and inspirations from the community servers—if they have not already been doing so—because I have been seeing good things being said about Legends of Ultima.
  • +1
    I agree with all points and I have the same feelings as old UO player.
    You have my sword.

    Shelk, I would add to yours list:
    +1 create COMPANION status for players who want to help others. Rewards for their time may be paid in cash for in game store depends on - how many stars/opinion tehy get from NEVBIE after maybe 1h.
    To these days I rememebr Aaron who help me start in UO and it was so fantastic. Companion should have option to recall to nevbie, nothing more.
  • Necro said:

    You guys should really check out the community Legends of Ultima server. I resisted it for a really long time but recently moved over and I am having an absolute blast. As it seems like LoA is moving away from UO, Legends of Ultima is re-creating the best of it.

    Just may check it out. As, I like most of what UO done over LoA.

    Have always preferred offical servers, until...now.
  • ShelkShelk Canada
    Necro said:

    You guys should really check out the community Legends of Ultima server. I resisted it for a really long time but recently moved over and I am having an absolute blast. As it seems like LoA is moving away from UO, Legends of Ultima is re-creating the best of it.

    Same here. I see it on the community servers and did make a char to check it out quick. Maybe i'll revisit.
  • ShelkShelk Canada
    Fi said:


    I wonder if the developers of Legends of Aria will take ideas and inspirations from the community servers—if they have not already been doing so—because I have been seeing good things being said about Legends of Ultima.

    When I read it was fully modable by the community I instantly thought "CS are going to get the player base to do a lot of work for free". True, from CSs perspective it is work you can't direct per se. However if CS notices a community server is working on something they have a plan/interest in, they can decide to work on something else instead and pick up the community servers work later. I don't begrudge them for this at all. I think it's a smart move that helps things along.
  • NecroNecro Azure
    A modernized looking uo is really what most of us were and are after when we bought this game anyways. Legends of Ultima is trying to provide that while LoA is not. Just look at their karma and spell system.
  • Necro said:

    A modernized looking uo is really what most of us were and are after when we bought this game anyways. Legends of Ultima is trying to provide that while LoA is not. Just look at their karma and spell system.

    That is what I had hoped for, instead they kept the same camera view, etc...to mirror UO and then went a different course after that. Still making UO the better game, imo.
  • OuijaOuija Canada
    +12
    Shelk said:

    I used to talk about UO2 or something similar 15 years ago and slowly lost interest in the whole mmo genre as WoW clones crashed and burned year after year. Then I recently stumbled onto LoA and couldn't believe it, it really is, or at least trying to be the UO2 that never materialized so long ago. I forwarded a YT vid about it to some friends and 4 of them (3 of which are old UO vets) picked it up.

    My friends and I were discussing LoA and UO the other night and if you, as we do, want LoA to be the long lost UO2, then lets take a look at some of the features that made UO so good. Lets try to get those features implemented into LoA. The game is an Early Access work in progress so now is the perfect time to offer our combined input.

    1) Character Differentiation

    Lujan said:
    “When I played UO I wasn't a tank, a healer, DPS, or support. I was Lujan.”

    I don't know who Lujan was but I always remembered this line because they summed it up and nailed it hard when they said this 10+ years ago on some forum. In UO your characters were unique. Characters with the exact same skill and stat build could still look drastically different. We remember being able to identify players just by looking at their characters on screen, no need to hit “Allnames”. The freedom for players to differentiate their characters from one another was a masterful element of UO that was accomplished in two ways: Skills/Stats and Gear/Decorative.

    Skills and Stats
    This is where UO and LoA both shine. Giving players the freedom to build characters how they want with a finite amount of skill and stat points is perfect.
    Things LoA has done great:
    Removed some of the “useless” skills in UO like begging, detect hidden, etc. Incorporated Resisting Spells into the Wisdom stat.
    Split Magery into offense (Evocation) and utility (Manifestation) skills.
    Beastmastery for the high end taming.

    Things in LoA that are not so great:
    Splitting the armor into skills.

    “Wait a minute, they broke up Magery and that was a good thing but they broke up armor into skills and that is a bad thing?”
    Answer: Yes and yes, here's why:

    Breaking up Magery further differentiates players because it forces players to make a choice and denies players taking magic for the utilitarian purposes from having offensive magic capability. Breaking up armor into skills seems like it differentiates players because it also forces players to make a choice, but it is not that simple. There is more nuance to it than that of Magery because the type of armor can affect mana regen, agility, and appearance. The way it is now, you either wear Cloth (no skill), Light Armor skill, or Heavy Armor skill. This hurts player differentiation because it pigeon holes every player into one of 3 archetypes which is a complete contradiction of what the free build skills/stats system is designed for.

    Maybe have one armor skill called Armor or Armored Defense and if you train it up you gain the most defense you can get out of any type of armor. Retain the limitations on mana regeneration and agility penalties etc. This will also leads into the next topic of Gear/Decorative for aesthetic differentiation for the player base.

    Gear/Decorative
    UO had various armor types and 6 separate pieces of armor for most suits (helm, gorget, chest, arms, gloves, legs), and a clothing overlay for robes, cloaks, sashes, tunics, not to mention several types of footwear and hats. All this and arguably most importantly the dyes and dye tubs, which were very cheap to buy from the tailor vendors. Using dyes on a dye tub brought up a UI of the full color spectrum plus light and dark allowing you to dye a tub the desired color. You could then use that dye tub indefinitely to color your items. That was an amazing amount of customization given to the players to differentiate themselves.

    “This isn't a fashion runway its a PvP mmo!”

    Right now all players in cloth look the same, all players in Light Armor look the same, all players in Heavy Armor look the same. 3 pieces of armor per suit and only penalties to mix sets, plus no clothing overlay is cripplingly limiting. Also there is virtually zero color to anyone. The only colors I have seen are a couple green cloaks and some RARE red or blue. No its not a fashion runway but it doesn't need to make everyone a monochrome clone either.

    2) Crafting
    From my experience thus far there are no reasons anyone would buy any weapon that is not either the worst they can find (for training) or the best they can find/afford for actual fighting. That leaves the vast bulk of crafted weapons undesirable garbage. Also the durability of weapons and armor is WAY to high. Items last too long creating a vast oversupply, so the price of the high end weapons drops to such a low point I don't know why someone would make a blacksmith tbh since it is so easy and cheap to buy high end gear.

    Maybe have the different materials affect the weapon or armor in various ways. One type maybe has more durability. Another type can increase the duration or damage of the special abilities attached to it, etc.

    3) Recall Spell
    There is no recall like UO had, only Gate spell. Why not? It is all setup for it with runes and Mark spell etc. Have the Teleport spell take the place of Recall. Teleport in this game is useless anyhow as you can't even use it to cross a river. CS, by having no recall to move around, I assume you intend for people to travel through the gameworld but there is practically nothing in the gameworld which leads to my next topic.

    4) The Gameworld
    In UO wandering through the landscape could be just as adventurous as going to a dungeon. The fields and forests were populated with elementals, evil npcs, orcs, ratmen, ettins, skeletons, wraiths, liches, a whole myriad of enemies, not to mention other players. In LoA the landscape is EMPTY. There is the odd bandit, troll, or goblin. Thats it. Again, from my experience thus far there are no reasons to explore in the wilderness. There is NO ONE out there because there is no reason to be out there. LoA has the whole game bottled up in a handful of Dungeons and Mines.

    I've read some of the pk topics on these forums regarding this point, especially about the mines. I agree it is like shooting fish in a barrel. In UO if a pk got you, that sucks, wrong place at the wrong time I guess. In LoA it is entirely different. You are forced to be at the wrong place, and it is just a matter of time because the pks patrol these locations. UO had a superior system in regards to this as well how every mountain textured location throughout the entire world could be mined for ores.

    Don't be disingenuous about it, if you are killing miners you are doing it because its an easy kill easy rewards. I had reds on UO and sometimes I did the same thing around Minoc mountain. I wasn't looking for some epic PvP battle and you aren't either.

    Point is, spread the game out CS. You created this world, fill it with all the monsters, ores, woods, etc. Give the players a reason to go out there and they will find the adventures and tales you are trying to provide for them.

    5) Conclusion
    All being said, even with the ripping on LoA etc. our group is enthusiastic about what has been built here. We understand as I said at the start it is an Early Access work in progress and we believe it could benefit immensely by adopting more of the systems UO had which imo are overlooked but were some of the best ever applied to an mmo.

    You know as well as we do if LoA isn't truly ready for Steam launch it will be annihilated in the reviews and then there is no coming back and will slowly fade off.

    Shelk

  • Shelk said:



    Death said:

    @Shelk

    As an oldschool UO player what do you think about the dread lord era, stat loss, and trammel?

    Stat Loss
    I have no problem with reds being penalized with stat loss upon death.
    Here's why:

    When a red pks another player and loots them, they are essentially taking the time away that the pk'd player spent in acquiring the items that were looted. So it is only fair that when a red is killed they must pay in their own time retraining skills.

    .
    Im sorry so your suggestion is , since a pk waisted 5-10 minutes of your time he should have to spend HOURS re leveling skills. All because he bought a game labeled as a PvP game ? absurd....The only thing this accomplishes is pushing more players to different games.
  • ShelkShelk Canada
    Shelk said:



    Death said:

    @Shelk

    As an oldschool UO player what do you think about the dread lord era, stat loss, and trammel?

    Stat Loss
    I have no problem with reds being penalized with stat loss upon death.
    Here's why:

    When a red pks another player and loots them, they are essentially taking the time away that the pk'd player spent in acquiring the items that were looted. So it is only fair that when a red is killed they must pay in their own time retraining skills.

    A lot of the time a red (or their alt blues) will be wearing or using items that were looted that didn't belong to them in the first place and cost them nothing. Also reds generally pk WAY more than they are pk'd.
    Mekushu said:



    Im sorry so your suggestion is , since a pk waisted 5-10 minutes of your time he should have to spend HOURS re leveling skills. All because he bought a game labeled as a PvP game ? absurd....The only thing this accomplishes is pushing more players to different games.

    The context of the original question was asking my opinion on oldschool UO, not LoA, but since you brought it up....

    I don't think statloss is necessary but for arguments sake:
    Say you kill a few helpless miners, their time wasted might be 5 mins, might be 10 mins, might be 1/2 hr, might be an hour+. Do this a few days in a row before getting killed and you have accumulated quite the block of other ppls wasted time. High risk = your statloss vs high reward = all their work for free.
    That's how it worked at that time in UO and no one really complained. It was understood that if you wanted to be a murderous bad ass there was a price paid for it eventually.

    The actual history of UO refutes your argument that statloss penalties make reds quit. Now it was a long time ago but I don't remember a single red, including myself, ever quitting because of the statloss penalty. The history is clear however that it was new players quitting in droves because of the relentless beatdowns. That's why they brought in Trammel that cheapened the whole UO experience imo.

    I already said LoA has done a better job than UO did in tackling the new player massacres. Unfortunately they haven't got rid of the bottlenecks, they have merely pushed it down the character development line to make the losses more palatable. They need to spread the game out over the landmass and do away with the "pk patrol" system around a few locals. Getting pk'd out in the woods randomly can be chalked up to being at the wrong place at the wrong time, sh*t happens. LoA has developing players always at the wrong place and it just being a matter of time because the pk's know that the easy pickings will be there. Removing the "fish in a barrel bottlenecks" would probably solve 90% of the complaining.

    All that said, and being an experienced LoA player what do you think about my op?
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