Do the Crime, Pay the Time - Outcast Jail System 2.0

SoapSoap United States
edited March 27 in General Discussion
Instead of taking UO stat loss conditions for Reds, make it more interesting.

The problem I’m seeing is that being PK’d is about loss of time spent. The answer many are coming up with is stat loss. That may be well and good but we’re getting same results: parking a Character and jumping on a different one.

Implementing a system for “Justice” and at the same time adding more content rather than hindering more players would be ideal.

Referencing the murder count being tossed around to combat PK’ing, there needs to be a jail system created.

Every kill adds to the “Bounty” of that Character. For each kill, your count rises, and more severe your jail time.

If we’re going the route of time taken equates to time served than for each count of murder increases your Characters time in Jail.

The Jail System would work like this:

A Red Character who is either killed or otherwise incapacitated is offered to serve a jail sentence, or suffer temporary stat loss and time at a % of loss based on count. Choosing stat loss will bring the stats back incrementally as you “ponder your crimes”.

Choosing the jail option would send you to a Closed Dungeon where other criminals will go.

You’re given a cell, with some equipment and basic weapons. It would be balanced based on your Characters skill choices so no one in jail is outmatched by equipment. If you lack the skill, you have bigger issues to worry about.

After gearing up, you pull the lever and are set loose.

Now it becomes a FFA 5 man Dungeon where the winner is set free and the losers are either given a second chance to compete or that Character is parked in the dungeon to serve their time.

Based on your count, each murder count against you accumulates to 1-2 in game hours. Maybe other offers to continue playing in the Jail setting is offered, as well.

Crafters can sell their wares to inmates and the gold is taken out directly from the Characters bank, should they choose to purchase any items.

Scenario II

If the Red Character is killed by an Orange or Blue and the Orange/Blue has shackles on them, they can use these shackles to bind the Red Character to them. The Red can then be looted of all items as well at this point.

If the Capturer wishes to give them potions, they can, and this is the only item the Captured Character can use.

A 30m-1hour timer is then set against them and they must travel on foot/foot speed to Valus, where the under ground Jail is at.

At any point, the Character who has captured the Criminal can drop the shackles and continue on Horseback, however, the Criminal can break free at this point as well. Until the shackles are free, they cannot use any actions, albeit potions left on them.

At any point, a Character of any Allegiance can kill the Captured, ending the binding, and rule 1 is inacted (Jail time or Stat loss based on murder count).

A Character can also kill the Capturer and either set the Red free (if their Allegiance allows), or pick up the bounty and resume the journey themselves.

Successful delivery of the Bounty will offer rewards based on profile of the Captured, and the Captured player heads to Jail.

Lastly, instead of stat loss, the Red Character who chooses Jail can decide to bypass stat loss (if they lose the 5 man FFA) for a significant amount of Gold/Resources based on their count. The money/resources paid will go to those they have killed.

Also, adding a public execution feature would be pretty neat, too. This could be for those who choose no stat loss but instead Jail Time, lose the fight in Jail, and also can’t afford to pay reparations. They spend X amount of time in Jail followed by a public execution. Nothing like a head getting chopped off to feel that sweet justice.

This was somewhat of a quick idea and if there are holes in it I apologize. I feel any restriction of player time is never fun and offering an incentive to revenge, more than just taking time from another player, would be ideal.
«1

Comments

  • edited March 22
    I think the concept is a clever way to implement a value system to murdering players without completely copying UO. Though I think what you've proposed is a overly complex.

    - Every time you murder a player you lose karma
    - Every time you murder a player that player has the option to add gold to your jail sentence
    - When a red dies they are sent to jail where their character sits in a cell for a set amount of time
    - The amount of time is based on the number of murders, karma, and gold placed on their head by victims
    - The red can log out and their jail time will be served even while offline
    - The red can also opt to pay the fine which is a factor of murders, karma, and gold placed on their head.
    - Paying the fine or serving time will allow the red to be released from jail with murder count and gold cost reset to zero. They will retain their negative karma and remain red
    - A red going blue is considered reformed and their murder count and gold value are dropped to zero

    I'd pair this with my proposed grey karma change which removes the orange toggle. Instead players who perform negative actions (looting blues, murdering, attacking blues) lose karma and go grey temporarily. The more negative karma you have the longer you stay grey all the way up to -9999 karma. At -10000 karma the player goes red.

    - 0 karma performing a negative action, grey for 5 minutes
    - neg. 9999 karma performing a negative action, grey for 1 hour
  • SoapSoap United States
    Mostly I wanted to propose a different option besides stat loss though I incorporated that into the idea anyway.

    And adding an option to PvP where only the jailed are a part of it would only further illustrate the path of a Red Character is PvP oriented and a fun way to pass time while making no meaningful progress.

    Murder counts should probably only be worth 15-30 minutes of jail/downtime per count and if skill loss were implemented 15-30 minutes temporary skill loss per count, continuing offline.

    Other options have to be there besides stat/skill loss, too.

    I agree it’s a lot, but I’d argue the more options the better. Multiple ways to claim bounties, multiple ways to pay for your crimes. Multiple avenues for PvP.

    Say you capture a Red, you can send them to an arena to fight another captured Red. You gain 50% of the winnings, the rest is split among those they’ve murdered, and every victory they achieve removes a count of murder.

    I’m just throwing out ideas. I think this game has unrivaled potential to add tons of amazing features.

    I’m all for punishing a criminal but in a way that fits that Characters playstyle would be more rich in terms of design.

    You go Red to PvP, let the punishment be some form of PvP. At least the option for it.
  • A bounty system would be nice, but i don't see how you could avoid people exploiting it.
  • CenturionCenturion United Kingdom
    The system is Archeage is good were they go before other players in a court system when killed and plead the case for freedom. The jury of players then get given 4 sentences to choose from and a free the person. The jury also see what crimes have been committed before sentencing.
  • I would really like if a PK accumulated a bounty on his head for every kill, plus whatever a player killed by him wants to add, but how do you stop that PK from getting killed by a friend and splitting the bounty in half?
    I'm all for more rewards for PK and more rewards for anti-PK, but it's not so easy to design an exploit-proof system which is easy to implement.
  • edited March 22
    My biggest worry with a system where you rely on other players to judge or fight is that you need enough players available to judge or fight. Otherwise it simply ends up being a red in a jail cell waiting.
  • SoapSoap United States
    Allowing only a certain number of contracts out per day or per week would go some of the distance to stop exploiting.

    3 Contracts per week, player who turns it in is on a 24 hour/weekly Cooldown.

    Contracts are randomly offered. You can’t choose which one is offered.

    Once a bounty is collected the target is required to pay for their crimes.

    Jail time options and Stat loss options, on top of paying fines against the characters they murdered.
  • @soap pairing jail time with a bounty system is a great idea and might actually do enough to curb exploiting bounties. The balance is as simple as: gold value < jail time. It has to be more efficient to farm gold than to farm bounties. Bounty hunting is not intended to make players rich, it’s supposed to keep reds in check.

    Reds have to serve jail time logged in, they also have the option to pay a debt to be released immediately.

    Jail cells Are located in oasis town or Black Forest outpost. Blues can visit the reds in their cells to keep track of them. If a red is in jail but not logged in they appear napping in the cell.

    Reds can’t turn in bounties. Furthermore, reds can’t put bounties on the heads of other reds when they die. They are outcasts after all.

    Anyone who attacked the red during the engagement can cut the head off. The person who cut the head off is the one that has to turn the head in. This encourages anti-pk blues.

    When a blue player is murdered by an aggressive red they have 12 hours to visit a bounty master located in any town to place a bounty. The bounty master takes 50% of the bounty and puts the other half in the reward pile.

    The red has to initiate the attack on a blue for it to be considered a murder. Reds defending themselves do not count.

    Murder counts do not increase the reward pile only players contributing coins. Murder counts only affect jail time. This counters reds who would murder their friends over and over again to pump up the reward value.

    Reward piles degrade at a rate of half every X days. This is meant to prevent hordes of gold that the red can exploit over time. It costs gold for the kingdom to keep track of these things, consider it a tax of sorts. If you want to be a prolific murderer then you have to be active and not get killed.

    Bounty boards display expected jail time and reward for the top 20 murderers. Lesser reds still have rewards but these 20 are actively targeted as opportunities by anti-pks.

    The question is what amount of jail time is reasonable?





  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Ruggero said:

    I would really like if a PK accumulated a bounty on his head for every kill, plus whatever a player killed by him wants to add, but how do you stop that PK from getting killed by a friend and splitting the bounty in half?
    I'm all for more rewards for PK and more rewards for anti-PK, but it's not so easy to design an exploit-proof system which is easy to implement.

    Another free source of gold? No thanks.
    For every kill the PK should accumulate prison time. When he's finally caught (dead and his head brought to court) he must go to prison for the accumulated time.
    If the captor needs a reward, it should be taken from the PK bank, or any other bank he has in is player account.
  • Death said:

    My biggest worry with a system where you rely on other players to judge or fight is that you need enough players available to judge or fight. Otherwise it simply ends up being a red in a jail cell waiting.

    Or his friends are the jury and nothing happens.
  • Sacha said:

    Ruggero said:

    I would really like if a PK accumulated a bounty on his head for every kill, plus whatever a player killed by him wants to add, but how do you stop that PK from getting killed by a friend and splitting the bounty in half?
    I'm all for more rewards for PK and more rewards for anti-PK, but it's not so easy to design an exploit-proof system which is easy to implement.

    Another free source of gold? No thanks.
    For every kill the PK should accumulate prison time. When he's finally caught (dead and his head brought to court) he must go to prison for the accumulated time.
    If the captor needs a reward, it should be taken from the PK bank, or any other bank he has in is player account.
    +1
  • SoapSoap United States
    edited March 27
    RP is fine but a jury system requiring RP is not gonna work haha. Jury system sounds cool, but sell it to us more than just Archeage had it in reference to LoA.

    Any original thoughts besides “UO did it this way” would be great. Currently we have 2 WoW systems being imported to Mounts and Dying. Can we not come up with some Hardcore gameplay alternatives?

    And if we must stick with murder counts causing player jail time and stat loss then my suggestion is the count starts the moment the player kills another player and during the hour interval they’ve killed them, they have the warrant for their arrest.

    During that time, a player can capture the Red and send them to Jail and the Red pays 50% to the Hunter and the other 50% goes to the Jail which redistributes that to the Murdered Player(s) on the Reds murder count he was arrested for. Then they remain locked in jail for the remainder of their kill.

    Multiple murder counts stack and the cost increases... a Gold per kill, let’s not get crazy here.

    Hunters will have to run the heads/shackled player back to the Valus City Prison, on foot, before the warrant expires, for payout and punishment. P&P.

    So the Hunter makes at least 50 silver on the kill/arrest and the Red has to question leaving his house if he’s racked up so many kills.

    This also addresses camping a dungeon. Kill 5 people you might find yourself owning 5 gold back to your Hunter and 5 hours in the Valus City Prison.

    Again, any red or orange sent to Jail shouldn’t be confined to a cell. They should be able to run around in Jail.

    “Valus City Prison is a sprawling sewer system that scum like you will find right at home. People drop shit around the the Bankhouse daily. Where does that shit end up? In the Valus City Prison baby!

    Grab a weapon and kill some time, literally. And do it over and over until your times up. Or, if you’re just here to serve your time, fall in a bed and take a dirt na— I mean, relax and ponder your crimes.. scum.”

    (Your crimes fade in Jail whether you’re awake “Online” or asleep “Not Online” [duh].)

    “So you wanna get out of Jail but you don’t wanna do the time? I might be able to help you with that. You give me double of what your fines were and I’ll have you out of here. But before you leave I gotta make it look like you escaped. I can’t just let you go; you murdered 11 miners and 24 lumber jacks! Pay me 70 gold and let me bruise you up a bit before you knock me out and steal the keys.”

    (Obviously this would required you to kill 35 players in under an hour to rack up that kind of Bribe. I exaggerated. I hate that I feel I have to explain this. I don’t want wires crossed. Already sick of posting ideas for this game.)

    You’re able to pay off your crimes for double your fines, ONCE per day/week.

    IE: 2 murder counts = 2 Gold upon captured/jailed. 4 Gold to Bribe the Guard to escape.

    You skip the jail time, but the Jailer left you hurting good. I don’t think he liked you very much.

    Here we go, skill loss for 25% of your full murder count time.

    The moment you murder a player, not attack, is the moment the timer starts. 1 murder = 1 hour arrestability.

    After that, your infamy is gone. You think you’re hot stuff for killing that 1 frolicking Blue goof? Think again.

    If this doesn’t sound good to you, that’s fine, but come up with something that’s a legit gameplay change that actually adds something and not just hinders people more. I like to think this is the softest hard core punishment I can think of. And it still offers you a chance to PvP after you’ve been arrested.

    Things I think could be even further elaborated on: adding incentives to get a ton of murder counts. Also, making it so your murder count is locked and doesn’t degrade after so many murders. You’ve finally made it; you’re NOTORIOUS.

    Also, I know CS probably isn’t listening nor going to do something like this sadly, but....

    - Let Reds freaking fast travel. Maybe not via Gatekeepers, but let them have some means of travel.

    - An underground Sewer system that takes 1/4 of the time it takes to go from Oasis to BF

    - an Outcast GK requiring player heads as a Reagent

    - or make Portal Travel cost 75% of an Outcasts Health, Stamina, and Mana, and casting it below 75% can/will kill them where they stand attempting to cast it. Would be quite the noble sacrifice.

    - Limit criminals fast travel to a time frame of their crime and make it vary based on the crime. Alternative or addition to above.

    This is neither “Hardcore” nor challenging, this just adds to define the game more and more as just a grind simulator (Stuff about Reds fast travelling, not Jail).

    *Edited my post. Sorreh. I like edgy titles.
  • SoapSoap United States
    - Make high profile criminals loss House access and live nomadically.

    - 10 second timer in the Wilderness to set up camp and lay in tent to log off safely, no “napping”

    - make players who trade with criminals become criminals

    There was this awesome post on Reddit a while back about doing something like this.

    The problem is, punishing a player for simply choosing to be a Red is shallow game design.

    Now punishing them for choosing to actually murder another player, that’s a different story.

    After I’m murdered by SlimJoe, THEN restrict his Fast Travel abilities.

    - make everyone nap, not just Reds
    The fact there’s a descrepency here is moderately concerning.
  • SoapSoap United States
    Removed.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Soap said:

    And if we must stick with murder counts causing player jail time and stat loss then my suggestion is the count starts the moment the player kills another player and during the hour interval they’ve killed them, they have the warrant for their arrest.

    The count should not have a timeout.
    Soap said:

    During that time, a player can capture the Red and send them to Jail and the Red pays 50% to the Hunter and the other 50% goes to the Jail which redistributes that to the Murdered Player(s) on the Reds murder count he was arrested for.

    I would not give anything to the victims, everything to the hunter.
    And if the red has no money in the bank, or a house that can go on auction, they should look in bank accounts of other chars in the same account.
    1 gold per murder is a bit high imho. Guess it depends on jailtime per murder.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Soap said:

    The problem is, punishing a player for simply choosing to be a Red is shallow game design.

    Now punishing them for choosing to actually murder another player, that’s a different story.

    If you are red, chances are you already murdered someone, aren't they?

  • SoapSoap United States
    No timeouts could activate after a certain amount of total kills, or amount of within a time frame. 5 kills in 1 hour could lock you. But then logging off for 5 hours would reset you until to either 0 OR the 5 murders persist but you don’t continue adding onto them. Basically creating lists of murders rolled into separate stacks.

    Chances are you did murder someone already but if you killed 3 guys spread out across a week of play then your notoriety is low. If there was a way to track every murder/Outcast and weigh their murders then the amount required to murder someone and have a count stick/stack could be averaged based on that. But shit then people could murder a guy 100 times and no one would be punished.
  • SoapSoap United States
    I’d say gives 50% back to those on your count that you’re killed for so there’s more incentive for the guy who got killed to go after the murderer.
  • Funny how being and going in the wilderness should have consequences, but being red and killing other players (wasting those players time and effort) there should be little to no consequences for being red...
  • SoapSoap United States
    Are you saying there shouldn’t? Or are you saying “Reds don’t want consequences for being Red?”

    I know for a fact there are Reds who are fine with punishment. But not in the stupid ways they’ve been punished now. Maybe the way I ’ve described isn’t it either, but anything that adds to the game rather than takes away, or is circumvented by the gameiest of the gamey tactics ie requiring multiple accounts or multiple chars in multiple locations, would be better.

    Also having rewards worth the risk would add to this.
  • OuijaOuija Canada
    I think a jail system isn't a bad idea. I like the idea of basicly skill/stat loss in an area where everyone else has it. once the time is served your crimes are desolved and you become blue again. sounds great.
  • Jail punishments are easily circumvented by leaving multiple accounts logged in at the same time.
  • SoapSoap United States
    edited March 27
    True. But even a guy who’s got 1, 2, 3+ accounts is going to have to park multiple characters if caught or if being actively hunted on all chars, it still puts some risk, more than there is now, on that Character. This isn’t to say it should be the only form of punishment that’s active.

    Anyone who’s running multiple red accounts is a player dedicating themselves to that playstyle vs a single account dedicated to half Red half Blue, etc. It has the possibility of weeding out the player base who’s not as committed to the role.

    This argument about Red and Blue goes deeper than just that.

    Adding content that’s only obtainable in the Guarded and being Blue and also the same for content only available to Red players to incentivize players to spend time on both sides could also see decreases in the casual Red playerbase.

    GvG, FvF, a non combat PvP Business system that differs based on a Guarded and Wilderness, ie Guarded = “Honest Merchants” using subterfuge/hired thugs/arson to undermine business, while Wilderness = Black Market opportunities not available to Blue Players/Honest Merchants and using Chaotic players as Mules to ferry “illegal” goods.

    Special event PvE mechanics only offered in Guarded Areas requiring Group play to accomplish with a Fail Mechanic.

    Special event PvP/PvE mechanics only offered in Wilderness to attack certain Neautral hubs rewarding Reds “Chaos marks” and Blues “Order Marks” for successful attack/repel. They can then be offset per account to be a balancing act, Order takes away from your Chaos points and Chaos takes away from account Order points making people want to choose an Allegiance and stick to it. Rewards can be special armor/weapon/Mount cosmetics gated to an accounts overall Chaos/Order point accrewal.

    I just think this games got a ton of potential and systems could be in place we haven’t even thought of yet to reach that potential.
  • OuijaOuija Canada
    At the end of the day the solutions shouldn't stop a player from playing the game.
  • SoapSoap United States
    I agree @Ouija

    I see this more as a Character being punished than a player though. It’s a thin distinction but just my opinion.

    It’s the same with gating Reds from Fast Travel. That, to me, is more of player hinderence than a Character. Character doesn’t know the difference in being restricted from fast travel, just the player. A character, in the case of murder, should understand this and suffer consequences for it.

    Any idea could spark a better one so all input helps.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Ouija said:

    At the end of the day the solutions shouldn't stop a player from playing the game.

    If this was a game where it's hard to reach GM, you should never punish the player for sometihng the char does. You would punish the char, even with permadeath for massive killers when caught.
  • edited March 28
    Ouija said:

    At the end of the day the solutions shouldn't stop a player from playing the game.

    And yet this is the result of a Red who murders a blue gatherer. The last 1-2 hours of mining/lumberjacking/farming gold is erased and is now in the pockets of the red.

    Why is it okay for one player to disrupt the other player's game with zero risk for equal repercussions?

    This is why every murder has an associated estimated time and that time gets paid sooner or later. Perhaps the red is the most prolific murderer in the game and never dies... never serves jail time, good it creates a mythos around a successful serial killer - allow them the notoriety.

    For all the rest you can murder all the blues that you want but sooner or later you will do the time.

    p.s. I'm all for jail times that span days and can be server without logging in.
  • Death said:

    Ouija said:

    At the end of the day the solutions shouldn't stop a player from playing the game.

    And yet this is the result of a Red who murders a blue gatherer. The last 1-2 hours of mining/lumberjacking/farming gold is erased and is now in the pockets of the red.

    Why is it okay for one player to disrupt the other player's game with zero risk for equal repercussions?

    This is why every murder has an associated estimated time and that time gets paid sooner or later. Perhaps the red is the most prolific murderer in the game and never dies... never serves jail time, good it creates a mythos around a successful serial killer - allow them the notoriety.

    For all the rest you can murder all the blues that you want but sooner or later you will do the time.

    p.s. I'm all for jail times that span days and can be server without logging in.

    Being murdered is usually a 15 min setback for a gatherer, maybe 20 min if he doesn't ress you. If you really want to punish players based on that, then you would be implementing a complex system just so that every once in a while the red would need to log out for a couple of hours (assuming 8 kills before getting killed) and use another char? Devs have better things to do.
  • jailtime is stupid nobody wants to play video games to sit there and do nothing get out
  • SoapSoap United States
    rgarrett said:

    jailtime is stupid nobody wants to play video games to sit there and do nothing get out

    So you propose what? You already sit around half this game grinding resources, skills, etc.

    If this game was created with only 1 char slot then your point might be valid, but you get 4 whole chars per account to play as you see fit.

    So if your character does get caught and you don’t have the funds to pay off your crimes, whatever, you then have 3 other character options to choose from.

    Not only that, but this system weeds out the wannabe Red players who have to zerg or only kill miners as the actual good Reds, as Death said, will gain notoriety for never being caught.

    Also, I have no problem with Reds ganking miners and helpless players. I like the immersion of evil in the world.

    But the game has 0 incentive to hunt a criminal down. Sure, a miner could get ganked and then offer a gold sum for someone to kill the Red, even Rez kill them, but no one afaik is gonna do that.

    Sucks not everyone understands this. It should be common sense by now.

    I just want a Hardcore, punishing MMO to play, so yeah if that means I kill a bunch of people and get my ass caught, throw me in jail.

    Also, I mentioned if you go to jail you can continue to PvP there to pass the time, but “reading” right?
Sign In or Register to comment.