Ganker Problems - It's probably you

I wanted to chime in here on the fact that it seems that many people are asking for or weighing potential ruleset changes around the impact on ganking.

I will say point blank, I dont think there is a ganking/griefing problem. My definition of ganking may be very different.

When I think ganking problem, I think of someone or a group of someones that kill you repeatedly to the point you cannot actually escape the situation and carry on playing. I have personally never seen this happen. I currently have 7days 22 hours in game. Typically, when I am PKed (a total of 3 times to date) I was likely being very relaxed and inattentive to the situation around me. When I was PKed, all times the PK either rezed me and took a few things (coin and horse statues) or left all my stuff alone.

Without being confrontational, what are people talking about? Where is this happening? Maybe a story or two.
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Comments

  • @SirMcloney What server do you play on?

    Also, it depends on what time of day your playing.
  • Unfortunately, blue players that actually enjoy the thrill of risk vs reward in the wilderness are a minority here. Even the devs have stated that "if players cant just farm then we have done something wrong". In the first couple months, Red zerg guild alliances were a problem and 10vs1 situations were a problem, and not having alternative farm locations were a problem, and spy cams were a problem. Since then both of the Red zerg guilds have quit, there is only 1 active pk guild left and another is semi active. At this point reds are a small minority in the game, as it should be. I think the majority of violence in this game should come from faction vs faction or guild vs guild. There are many blue players that think reds are immature children that need to be put in time out and they are more than happy to slap on penalty after penalty. But the red population has already significantly diminished. If they add sleeping in the wilderness when you try to log out only for reds. The red population will become next to nothing. A lot of blue players just want to farm without ever being bothered... it seems to me that people like that are coming from trammel... There needs to be a balance between reds and blues, we cant have one without the other. The whole sleeping thing is going to tip the scale too far to the side of blues in my opinion... we need each other, there needs to be a balance or this is just a another mmo farming simulator like the rest of them.
  • I wanted to chime in here on the fact that it seems that many people are asking for or weighing potential ruleset changes around the impact on ganking.

    I will say point blank, I dont think there is a ganking/griefing problem. My definition of ganking may be very different.

    When I think ganking problem, I think of someone or a group of someones that kill you repeatedly to the point you cannot actually escape the situation and carry on playing. I have personally never seen this happen. I currently have 7days 22 hours in game. Typically, when I am PKed (a total of 3 times to date) I was likely being very relaxed and inattentive to the situation around me. When I was PKed, all times the PK either rezed me and took a few things (coin and horse statues) or left all my stuff alone.

    Without being confrontational, what are people talking about? Where is this happening? Maybe a story or two.

    They are talking about choke points...dungeons (where to get ability books or pay a lot of gold for them) limited areas for resources and skill gains (meaning those players are not even GMed, yet).

    Most just don't like the choke points which is forced PvP, in am unbalanced system....Ability Books.
  • Aria is built around the concept of non consensual PVP though.
    Ganks HAVE to happen, or the game has failed.
    If there are no chokepoints, then how are you supposed to have blues assaulted by reds?
    There should be those focal points which have an high risk vs reward element.

    Right now the problem is the opposite, there aren't enough reasons to be red. There should be more incentives to go red and assault players.
  • 1coldone said:

    I wanted to chime in here on the fact that it seems that many people are asking for or weighing potential ruleset changes around the impact on ganking.

    I will say point blank, I dont think there is a ganking/griefing problem. My definition of ganking may be very different.

    When I think ganking problem, I think of someone or a group of someones that kill you repeatedly to the point you cannot actually escape the situation and carry on playing. I have personally never seen this happen. I currently have 7days 22 hours in game. Typically, when I am PKed (a total of 3 times to date) I was likely being very relaxed and inattentive to the situation around me. When I was PKed, all times the PK either rezed me and took a few things (coin and horse statues) or left all my stuff alone.

    Without being confrontational, what are people talking about? Where is this happening? Maybe a story or two.

    They are talking about choke points...dungeons (where to get ability books or pay a lot of gold for them) limited areas for resources and skill gains (meaning those players are not even GMed, yet).

    Most just don't like the choke points which is forced PvP, in am unbalanced system....Ability Books.
    Agreed, the population even here on VE was steadily growing prior to the last ability book update.

    Honestly I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back per say.

    The problem is not the killing, it's the broken game mechanics and flawed design behind the killing.
  • SachaSacha [Reino de Aldor]
    Ruggero said:

    Aria is built around the concept of non consensual PVP though.
    Ganks HAVE to happen, or the game has failed.

    At least twice every year I get to wonder where some people get this from. Maybe is a new built?

  • edited March 19
    Let's be honest, being a Red player, you're not sitting there upon a high horse killing the miners and farmers because you have a duty to do so. It is your Gods given duty as a Red to kill these dang miners and lumberjacks because if you don't then there won't be any content and this game is going to die... You're killing miners and lumberjacks because it's fun to pick on people. It's even more fun to pick on people who can't do anything about it... it's called 'bullying'. Yeah it's addictive right?

    This is the current state of LoA. You can go on and on about how you think the blues should pull up their big boy pants and deal with it. But the reality is that all playing a red means being a bully.

    Here's the crux of the issue however, the great circle of life. You want to kill players but if they get PK'd too often then they don't want to play. If they don't want to play then you don't have anyone to PK. It can't just be all about you Mr. Red Player. There have to be mechanisms built in to incentivize blues to want to play as well.

    Example:
    - rewards that match the risk (currently don't)
    - a crafting economy that is rewarding and prosperous (currently isn't)
    - balanced combat mechanics that give blues a chance to fight back or run away (very low %)

    Beyond these things that need to be addressed there's a laundry list of bigger problems that go beyond the Blue and Red dynamic. I'm confident that the developers know what's on that list and are working at their most diligent pace to amend them.
  • Ruggero said:

    Aria is built around the concept of non consensual PVP though.
    Ganks HAVE to happen, or the game has failed.
    If there are no chokepoints, then how are you supposed to have blues assaulted by reds?
    There should be those focal points which have an high risk vs reward element.

    Right now the problem is the opposite, there aren't enough reasons to be red. There should be more incentives to go red and assault players.

    No, choke points are all risk and no reward. Going in the wilderness is risk for reward. That is why things need to more spread out.

    Otherwise, the game will be a turn off to most people. If the game does not make money...you will soon not have much of a game.

  • edited March 19
    1coldone said:

    Ruggero said:

    Aria is built around the concept of non consensual PVP though.
    Ganks HAVE to happen, or the game has failed.
    If there are no chokepoints, then how are you supposed to have blues assaulted by reds?
    There should be those focal points which have an high risk vs reward element.

    Right now the problem is the opposite, there aren't enough reasons to be red. There should be more incentives to go red and assault players.

    No, choke points are all risk and no reward. Going in the wilderness is risk for reward. That is why things need to more spread out.

    Otherwise, the game will be a turn off to most people. If the game does not make money...you will soon not have much of a game.

    A prime example of your response is the recent changes to making blightwood a world spawn vs a Black Forest only spawn.

    I couldn't tell you how much more satisfying it is to farm blightwood/ash in the most remote locations in Aria. I have yet to be pk'd gathering wood since the patch.

    MORE patches like this will cause this game to thrive!!
  • I have played on both servers and I have played most of the content.

    Re: Chokepoints.
    If that is where the ganking is taking place, and you dont want to be involved with the PvP you can mine or craft or do something peaceful to create a bucket of loot to buy those books? If this isn't a possibility, the issue may be economics of making enough money to buy those books through crafting is broken.

    Though- I have run awakenings many many times at this point. I believe you could even run them by hiding by them and waiting for a team to roll through. I never saw anyone turn an add on player away from the awakening. If you act like a good player and play well, I cant imagine not being asked to join for more.

    My two cents:
    We need more content, and a focus on existing systems depth and value. We shouldn't play with the trim while we're still not pointed in the right direction. There is a lot more that can be gained in just the depth of systems that already exist without even the content, but I know everyone is thirsty for the content too.

    PKs are fine as they are. I have never rolled one and I am not interested in rolling one. But they aren't as prominent a part of the game as it would seem from these forums/reddit. Their detractors must be VERY verbal in private channels with the devs though to have so much work put into "balancing" for them.

  • +1 to Death
  • Death said:

    Let's be honest, being a Red player, you're not sitting there upon a high horse killing the miners and farmers because you have a duty to do so. It is your Gods given duty as a Red to kill these dang miners and lumberjacks because if you don't then there won't be any content and this game is going to die... You're killing miners and lumberjacks because it's fun to pick on people. It's even more fun to pick on people who can't do anything about it... it's called 'bullying'. Yeah it's addictive right?

    This is the current state of LoA. You can go on and on about how you think the blues should pull up their big boy pants and deal with it. But the reality is that all playing a red means being a bully.

    Here's the crux of the issue however, the great circle of life. You want to kill players but if they get PK'd too often then they don't want to play. If they don't want to play then you don't have anyone to PK. It can't just be all about you Mr. Red Player. There have to be mechanisms built in to incentivize blues to want to play as well.

    Example:
    - rewards that match the risk (currently don't)
    - a crafting economy that is rewarding and prosperous (currently isn't)
    - balanced combat mechanics that give blues a chance to fight back or run away (very low %)

    Beyond these things that need to be addressed there's a laundry list of bigger problems that go beyond the Blue and Red dynamic. I'm confident that the developers know what's on that list and are working at their most diligent pace to amend them.


    I have only blue chars and i main one of those poor miners. I have been killed by them more times than i can count, without ever being able to fight back, and yet i think that they are the ones who need help right now.
    If you seriously think that red=bully and the devs too think like that, then this game has no future.
    Without a good red population this game is doomed to fail. The fact that there are red is the main content of this game, they are a necessary part of the gameplay and of the economy.
    This game is not marketed as a pve game, it is marketed as a pvp game.
    If the reds don't want to play you lose the pvp content, if you lose the pvp content you lose the players.
  • edited March 19
    @Ruggero

    I’ll play to your argument (which is pretty hyperbolic); Without a good red population this game is doomed to fail. What do reds need? Blues...

    Go back and read what I wrote. Note that I didn’t say they should remove reds or punish them further. Two of my points are about giving more reasons for blues to take risks and go into the wilderness. My third point is to give blues an additional out.

    The only way for this game to not fail is reds right? What about factions and guild wars?

    ——-

    Definition of Bullying - seek to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable).
  • Then as you can see, that definition of bullying does not apply, most of the red players left are actually in search of good fights.
    The game has red as a necessary mechanic of the game, if not what would be the meaning of the wylderness? Why would the rarest resources be placed in wylderness if the risk of being ganked wasn't intended?

    Factions and guild wars are a form of consensual pvp, so they can be nothing more than an interesting integration, but the focus of the game is red vs blue.

    If these additional penalties to reds were to pass, there wouldn't be enough reds left to sustain the game.

    I don't understand what do you mean when you say that right now the reward isn't worth the risk. Why do you believe so? I risk all the time, and my gripe is that the reward is too high for the risk, because as a consequence the economy is hurting.
    You third point does have its merit. Right now if you get caught in wylderness all you can say is "Oh crap..." and wait to be killed, this isn't particularly nice.
    At the same time though there must be something in it for the red too. Right now they don't get much by klling people. Blues have an easier life and higher rewards, being red isn't a good idea. You will not find players who became rich by doing red stuff.

    You can't even sell the looted equip because it's worned out and people don't buy it. Before you could at least sell the jewels, but now those degrade too.
    If you really want to make red's life harder, you must give something back, for example they should be able to offer the corpse of a player they killed to the dark gods, or something like that. Doing that they turn all the equip of the target in coins. This creates a reward for being red and gives a nice push to the economy.
  • ironmanironman Brazil
    Returning to ganks... i think that a detect hidden skill or a uncloak spell should be exist. Once a pk wait more than 5 minutes hiding to gank me just at the moment i ve dismounted... detect hidden will be more fair for both parts, reds and blues
  • Ganking has nothing to do with greifing..

    ganking is jumping same thing ….. out numbered fight is a gank

    spawn killing is spawn killing
  • Maybe if blue crafters actually made a character that can actually defend itself instead of going x6 crafter... it does not take much skills to be a tanky dexxer that is more than capable of defending himself while adding mining/lumberjacking to the build
  • I never thought of killing people in a game as bullying. I kill blues just like i kill goblins or orcs. There is no difference to me... Its all just part of the game. I follow the rules and enjoy myself.
  • If red players are in fact in search of good fights then the entire debate is moot because red players would not kill miners who don't fight back. They would run through the woods looking for anti-pks and other reds. If you think this is the honest reality of LoA then you are being disingenuous. When you attack a miner or lumberjack who does not fight back you are 100% "seeking to harm, intimidate, or coerce (someone perceived as vulnerable)."

    If all that reds want are good pvp engagements then we don't have to have this discussion at all because Factions 2.0 is in the works and when that drops you will have all of the consensual 'good fights' that you can handle. You won't have to kill miners and lumberjacks in the wilds because you'll get to fight players in towns (hopefully for capture points and loot).


  • SoapSoap United States
    Make a reason to have a crafter go Chaotic/Red. I think there’s too many crafters as is. But separate Blue from Red. Only allow Blue to trade with Blue, Red to Red.

    I guarantee we’ll see Blues running into mines and killing Orange/Red miners in no time.
  • SoapSoap United States
    But what would the alternative be? No monsters inhabit mines, afaik.

    Would the alternative be: No Reds in mines. Miners have to fight respawn after respawn of mine goblins to harvest ore.

    That would likely require training combat skills.

    And mine goblins should be able to rummage through your packs and steal loot.
  • edited March 20
    Murdering is part of the game hence reds(outcasts who are murderers). That doesn't make them bullies who are griefing. Killing a player, ressing them and giving them back most of their items isn't being a bully or griefing.

    Maybe if they were camping a corpse/res shrine and repeatidly killing them over and over you would have a sound argument for bullying/griefing.

    If you are a blue and you keep regearing to come back to attack reds you cannot play the victim. No one is picking on you.

    Too many delusional and hypersensitive players play this game.

    If you talked to a red in discord you'd realize they are not Hitler trying to ruin your day. Most are just normal gamers who aren't evil natured. It's just a aspect of the game, you are not being bullied, relax and take a deep breath.

    I had a blue try to pk my red while mining. I didn't think of him as a bully because that would just be stupid. Don't be so sensitive.
  • @soap the alternative is to provide a system that is rewarding enough to crafters/gatherers that being bullied by Reds is worth the risk.

    I've written about this in other posts - at the moment the crafting system and economy are dysfunctional. What do you get for slaving away in the mines/chopping wood? You get Gm carpentry or smithing right? You get to play the god roll slot machine and then you get to sell those items at your shop. Rinse and repeat. But the problem is that for all of your hard work you don't feel like a mighty smithy or carpenter. The armor system is broken and god rolls are lack luster. Does the reward feel worthwhile of the bullying day in and day out ? No. The life of a crafter is the life of a battered drone.

    To make things worse, your entire existence as a crafter is overshadowed by ability books. The most valuable things in the game aren't even crafted, they're dropped by mobs and lock crafters out of the loop. Kind of a slap in the face when fighters/raiders are the most lucrative playstyles in the game.

    So here's an alternative to making crafters feel valuable again. What if gatherers could get rare materials from mining/lumberjacking. They could get these materials from killing mobs. Instead of ability books dropping from the awakening they dropped epic materials.

    These materials would be used by crafters to make special armors and weapons which are imbued with abilities. Wis bonuses, will bonuses, slayer bonuses, etc. Let's say that being able to craft these items requires the crafter to specialize in different skills. Like a blacksmith who also has gm slashing skill can make special swords or GM carpenter with Archery can make imbued bows... But it can go deeper than that. What if ability books were player made and required a crafter that had GM Alchemy + Inscription?

    Now we're adding depth to the crafting system which in turn incentivizes them to go out to the wilderness to gather... and the reward is great because they're vital to the system to craft great armors, weapons, and ability books. All things that will be essential when the faction and guild wars start up.

    Tl;DR - Make crafters/gatherers feel essential and they will endure the risk for the rewards


  • Death said:

    @soap the alternative is to provide a system that is rewarding enough to crafters/gatherers that being bullied by Reds is worth the risk.

    I've written about this in other posts - at the moment the crafting system and economy are dysfunctional. What do you get for slaving away in the mines/chopping wood? You get Gm carpentry or smithing right? You get to play the god roll slot machine and then you get to sell those items at your shop. Rinse and repeat. But the problem is that for all of your hard work you don't feel like a mighty smithy or carpenter. The armor system is broken and god rolls are lack luster. Does the reward feel worthwhile of the bullying day in and day out ? No. The life of a crafter is the life of a battered drone.

    To make things worse, your entire existence as a crafter is overshadowed by ability books. The most valuable things in the game aren't even crafted, they're dropped by mobs and lock crafters out of the loop. Kind of a slap in the face when fighters/raiders are the most lucrative playstyles in the game.

    So here's an alternative to making crafters feel valuable again. What if gatherers could get rare materials from mining/lumberjacking. They could get these materials from killing mobs. Instead of ability books dropping from the awakening they dropped epic materials.

    These materials would be used by crafters to make special armors and weapons which are imbued with abilities. Wis bonuses, will bonuses, slayer bonuses, etc. Let's say that being able to craft these items requires the crafter to specialize in different skills. Like a blacksmith who also has gm slashing skill can make special swords or GM carpenter with Archery can make imbued bows... But it can go deeper than that. What if ability books were player made and required a crafter that had GM Alchemy + Inscription?

    Now we're adding depth to the crafting system which in turn incentivizes them to go out to the wilderness to gather... and the reward is great because they're vital to the system to craft great armors, weapons, and ability books. All things that will be essential when the faction and guild wars start up.

    Tl;DR - Make crafters/gatherers feel essential and they will endure the risk for the rewards


    +1000000000, this will also prevent guilds from forming monopolies on certain ability books and causing massive price inflation via extortion for outsiders attempting to get required skill books. Please Enable this, but make the book created Random, and require more materials per higher tier of books.
  • GlumpfnerGlumpfner Ireland
    edited March 20
    Arguing with Reds that say ganking is not a problem, is like arguing with a Trump supporter about human rights issues.

    No offense, but the community has spoken and the result is clear. Most people left because of the PvP issue.

    The game is now out for 4 months, and it seems 95% of all players left the game. At the moment the game is as good as dead. If you read the forums, discord and reddit on why people are leaving, it's obvious, the vast majority enjoyed the games content, but hated that they coudn't enjoy a single hour in the wilderness without getting killed over and over.

    Getting killed wouldn't even be the problem, however the fact that it takes 10-20 minutes from a death until you're back where you left off, that is the problem. After each death you need to walk to a ress stone, get back home or go to a bank, get resupply and armor/weapons, then back out again, all this takes 10-20 minutes each time.

    Most players plays 1-2 hours every few days. Most players do not like to PvP.
    So

    And in regards to the OPs question on the definition of ganking. Back in December and January when the servers were still full, yes, there was absolutely a problem. If I would go to a mine, and every 5 minutes you would get raided by 5-10 reds, killing and looting everyone in the mines for days and days, yes, that was a problem and it was frustrating to play. Crafters and farmers are easy targets that can hardly fight back. When you see that day and night, miners, tamers and lumberjacks were ganked non stop 24/7, what is the fun in that? You can bring excuses that they should "hire" body guards or join a guild, but that is some bullshit RPG exuse that never works in practice. The average player works a full time job and has a family. They play 1-2 hours ever few days. Organizing groups to go to mine takes way too much time for the average player.

    As I said, the community has spoken. The game is dead. We all hope for a steam release that will boost the player base, and it certainly will, but the same issue will come back again.

    Why oh why is it so hard to learn from history. UO in 1997 gained a massive player base. By 1998 it was down by 75% and everyone hated the PvP system. UO was so desperate, they released the Trammel System in early 2000, and as a result the player base went from a few 1000s left over players up to 250,000.

    History has already repeated itself since December. The biggest issue is PvP. Most people don't like to PvP, yet they would like to enjoy the game as well.
    If the argument is, LoA is a PvP game, well then, Citadel Studios will be bankrupt by the end of the year because they can't sustain a business with a few 100 players who paid a one time fee.

    You know what the biggest irony is. Red players find it funny when blue unarmed crafters complain about getting killed all the time. Yet when there are talks about implementing a Trammel system, Red players call it bullshit, because they argue that they can no longer kill unarmed crafters. If there would be a trammel system, reds can still fight the blue players that go to the other side, and tamers and crafters can enjoy the PvE content the way they like. Win/Win for everyone.

    Basically red players don't want to PvP, they don't like the challenge of proper PvP, they just want to gank unarmed crafters and tamers. The second there are talks about a trammel system, they call it bullshit because they're being challenged to only fight other PvP players.

    Ah the irony.

    Anyway. No matter what side you are on, no matter what you think LoA should focus on, reality is, the game is dead, most people left, and they left because of the PvP issue. Steam release will boost the player base, but eventually people will leave again for the same reason. If you want to stay stubborn and swim in ignorance, feel free to do so. That's the beautify about reality, it doesn't care if you accept it or not. Fact it fact, and in this case, fact is, there is an issue with PvP and it's responsible for the game dying.
  • As i said, the reward for crafters is already there. I don't remember seeing obsidian and blightwood in guarded areas. Obsidian should be more rare, i agree.

    Ability books are already being changed, so before we have any info on what CS exactly intends to do, there is no meaning in discussing it. The current system is flawed sure, but isn't going to last.

    @glumpfner You have no idea what you are talking about. This game is a pvp game, accept it. It has no meaning as a pve game, there are much much better alternatives out there. If you remove the pvp content, this game dies. Plain and simple.
    Most reds are truly interested in good pvp fights, and the demonstration of this is that in the pvp tournaments you find only red players, at least in Crimson Sea. There are also those that gank miners, but that is the equivalent of you farming mobs. You have to get your silver somewhere. Usually you don't lose a minute of play time, because you are killed and ressed on the spot, you just get looted of your ore/wood.
  • edited March 20
    The amount of carebears that decided to buy this game is astonishing.
  • DramaQueenDramaQueen Россия
    edited March 20
    Players left because they are bored :
    1. Complete skills.
    2. Full banks.
    3. Don't have hi-end content.
  • Grex said:

    The amount of carebears that decided to buy this game is astonishing.

    Its like going to an old arcade to play mortal kombat and get mad when better players win because they learned all the combos.

    If you want to do better, learn how to play better.

    Figure out what are the best techniques to help you survive.

    Find a guild that can help you and do dungeon runs and awakenings with them.

    Learn the maps and Practice pvp.




  • SoapSoap United States
    @Death

    Thats a great idea! I think multiple paths to creating weapons/armor and valuable items should be there.

    Your idea also makes it so people aren’t 6x’ing crafters on 1 char.

    There are too many crafters, there’s no reason to buy items sadly. But this is a great idea and step in the right direction.

    I think a guild bringing a gatherer/crafter along in dungeon raids just sounds like a good idea. They’ve no reason to go to dungeons, but with your idea that gives them a reason to go and mine those difficult ores, gather that magic log.

    Allowing additional skills once you GM or Master a craft could be interesting as well. You GM Blacksmith, now specialize in Swordcraft, Macecraft, etc.
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