Choke Points and forced pvp.

edited March 7 in General Discussion
I want you to look at a game that is now dead. A game that I gave similar warnings too, and even predicted when it would die and told them how much time they had... Linkrealms. They had a criminal system too... It didn't do any good. They too allowed multiboxing, but the problem was they had choke points and forced pvp. All the good dungeons were in red zones, and thats where you get the best loot: This is how one player destroyed an entire game. He bought many, many accounts, which made the devs happy. He used these accounts to max hide/stealth on each one, and then sent them all around the wilderness near choke points leading to places of interest, like dungeons. It didn't matter if you found and killed one... He still knew where you were because of it, like a spider and its web.

Doing this him and his group staked a claim on every single dungeon, and slaughtered everyone after they defeated the boss. He always knew where you were, and you could never out match him because he would make sure he brought more people than you had: Plus, he had the best loot from the dungeons he claimed. Because of this, the games population dwindled to about...23. The only ppl remaining were the ones who had multiple accounts hiding and waiting... It was no longer a game of go here and do this dungeon, it was "Whoever raids first, loses." The game was shut down.

So once again I find myself on a game that liked UO, but runs the risk of falling to a history that seems to always repeat itself. I beg you, before you release to steam, where that player and his friends stalk looking for the next UO-like game "to win" (yes, he did it on purpose. He considers it winning the game when it shuts down.) do whatever it takes to make sure such tactics cant happen. The population is everything in this type of game. Please don't let it die.

edit: Word of warning, https://forums.legendsofaria.com/profile/Holya already exists on this forums and has for years... Meaning him and his cronies plan on destroying this game.
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Comments

  • Oh and I should warn you that Holya and his ppl probably already exist here... https://massivelyop.com/2018/01/31/linkrealms-is-sunsetting-today/
    Since linkrealms apperently told its remaining playerbase to try this game.. How nice of them to send the rats this way.
  • HawkshieldHawkshield United States
    wow I did check out your link, its like the forums from there are copy/paste here practically, well in spirit anyway. I had no idea this game existed, but your right, it appears history is repeating itself.
  • ...you should have entitled this thread by "A Warning to the Devs".
    The issue has been discussed here some time ago:
    https://forums.legendsofaria.com/discussion/comment/21407/#Comment_21407

    I played LinkRealms and you could watch it dying every day due to the toxic behaviour of Holya and his friends. The Dev(s) (think it was just one or two) made a grave mistake: They thought that people like Holya are their "true supporters" and the main target group. They didn´t understand that the KOS, drylooting, rezzkilling etc. of newbies was not because of "showing newbs how a sandbox works" but for just feeling superior to others and dominating a social community. So to speak these players don´t play the game for the game sake but just for their own egocentric satisfaction.

    BTW Link Realms also started out by the typical "...if you don´t like it, this game is not for you...", "...carebear whiners..." etc. comments and ended up in the game completely empty with just Holya and his friends watching the scene for newbs they could kill. It was even more shocking that in the end, when the devs pulled the ripcord it was too late and Holya was proud of killing a complete game.

    I´m sure that this player is present here today, you can clearly make out his language and posting behaviour on this forums.

    Hope CS find their own conclusions from this story.

    /Herman
  • Guess I'm the only one who could care less about the ganking. I died to reds more often than I killed them, but in the end it was the lack of endgame that got me to quit.

    The endgame has no real purpose and no real visible impact on the world.

    I'm sure most who quit this game are in the same boat as me. The players crying over being ganked are in the minority because most of those player types probably avoided this game to begin with.

    Fix the endgame and many players will come back. Right now it feels like nothing more than a loot hording simulation. And most of the loot is plain and boring.
  • Problem imho is not Holya, because he is essentially a condensation of the worst of the human evil spirits…
    Problem is the reaction of the staff, because the passive approach of the linkrealm staff left him destroy the game freely.
    If CS staff will leave him exploit the game, they will fail like my friend Prometheus (linkreams lead designer). A serious polithic on multiaccount- passive skilling and ghosting is really important, otherwise we will migrate again in Fractured :)
  • MrBrewed said:

    I want you to look at a game that is now dead. A game that I gave similar warnings too, and even predicted when it would die and told them how much time they had... Linkrealms. They had a criminal system too... It didn't do any good. They too allowed multiboxing, but the problem was they had choke points and forced pvp. All the good dungeons were in red zones, and thats where you get the best loot: This is how one player destroyed an entire game. He bought many, many accounts, which made the devs happy. He used these accounts to max hide/stealth on each one, and then sent them all around the wilderness near choke points leading to places of interest, like dungeons. It didn't matter if you found and killed one... He still knew where you were because of it, like a spider and its web.

    Doing this him and his group staked a claim on every single dungeon, and slaughtered everyone after they defeated the boss. He always knew where you were, and you could never out match him because he would make sure he brought more people than you had: Plus, he had the best loot from the dungeons he claimed. Because of this, the games population dwindled to about...23. The only ppl remaining were the ones who had multiple accounts hiding and waiting... It was no longer a game of go here and do this dungeon, it was "Whoever raids first, loses." The game was shut down.

    So once again I find myself on a game that liked UO, but runs the risk of falling to a history that seems to always repeat itself. I beg you, before you release to steam, where that player and his friends stalk looking for the next UO-like game "to win" (yes, he did it on purpose. He considers it winning the game when it shuts down.) do whatever it takes to make sure such tactics cant happen. The population is everything in this type of game. Please don't let it die.

    +1
  • Meziljin said:

    Problem imho is not Holya, because he is essentially a condensation of the worst of the human evil spirits…
    Problem is the reaction of the staff, because the passive approach of the linkrealm staff left him destroy the game freely.
    If CS staff will leave him exploit the game, they will fail like my friend Prometheus (linkreams lead designer). A serious polithic on multiaccount- passive skilling and ghosting is really important, otherwise we will migrate again in Fractured :)

    2 of the devs from linkrelams went to Fractured....probably not a good idea to go there, either.

  • Oran said:

    Guess I'm the only one who could care less about the ganking. I died to reds more often than I killed them, but in the end it was the lack of endgame that got me to quit.

    The endgame has no real purpose and no real visible impact on the world.

    I'm sure most who quit this game are in the same boat as me. The players crying over being ganked are in the minority because most of those player types probably avoided this game to begin with.

    Fix the endgame and many players will come back. Right now it feels like nothing more than a loot hording simulation. And most of the loot is plain and boring.

    Not sure who the "minority" really is...but by your own logic "most other players avoided this game". However, there was a lot of hype going on about this being the UO successor, something that was not disputed while people were buying in....

    UO implemented trammel/felcucca to stop the bleeding of people. So, people thinking a similar system being in place is not far fetched.

    Think the minority just want the easy kills and loot. When the option is given, not a lot on the PvP, and some think forcing pvp and driving people out is somehow good in the long run for any game.

    Those players all and the game will be on life support...with a few players. Options are not bad, except to people who benefit from no one having options...
  • MrBrewed said:

    I want you to look at a game that is now dead. A game that I gave similar warnings too, and even predicted when it would die and told them how much time they had... Linkrealms. They had a criminal system too... It didn't do any good. They too allowed multiboxing, but the problem was they had choke points and forced pvp. All the good dungeons were in red zones, and thats where you get the best loot: This is how one player destroyed an entire game. He bought many, many accounts, which made the devs happy. He used these accounts to max hide/stealth on each one, and then sent them all around the wilderness near choke points leading to places of interest, like dungeons. It didn't matter if you found and killed one... He still knew where you were because of it, like a spider and its web.

    Doing this him and his group staked a claim on every single dungeon, and slaughtered everyone after they defeated the boss. He always knew where you were, and you could never out match him because he would make sure he brought more people than you had: Plus, he had the best loot from the dungeons he claimed. Because of this, the games population dwindled to about...23. The only ppl remaining were the ones who had multiple accounts hiding and waiting... It was no longer a game of go here and do this dungeon, it was "Whoever raids first, loses." The game was shut down.

    So once again I find myself on a game that liked UO, but runs the risk of falling to a history that seems to always repeat itself. I beg you, before you release to steam, where that player and his friends stalk looking for the next UO-like game "to win" (yes, he did it on purpose. He considers it winning the game when it shuts down.) do whatever it takes to make sure such tactics cant happen. The population is everything in this type of game. Please don't let it die.

    +1
  • edited March 6
    this game is slowly dying too, but I will be here until they turn off the light.
  • I would be good with them redoing the power of ability books, and spreading out resources across the world. Part of the is exploring and finding those secret resource locations.

    Hoping for new servers on steam release, where everyone gets the same rules on the drops on ABs. But, resources do need to be more spread out. The "best" could still the gank fields...

    But a bigger, stronger player base.. trammel/felucca fix, probably should not be off the table...
  • https://forums.legendsofaria.com/profile/Holya
    Caution!! They are already here. 1 community server has already banned him when they found out he was from linkrealms as one of his posts is complaining about that server trying to mass ban his guildmates.

    Seems we are already infested... Devs, please... Do whatever it takes to make sure he can't do anything... If it can be exploited, if it can be cheated, if it can cause mass harm... If you know of something that is within the realm of possibility but your answer is "Well...I doubt a player would actually do this to this extent..." HE WILL. He always does. No matter how much money it takes, how many accounts, how ever long.... He will do it so he can destroy the game.
  • KarakothKarakoth Denmark
    UO implemented trammel/felcucca to stop the bleeding of people. So, people thinking a similar system being in place is not far fetched.
    Then again. Trammel didnt stop the bleed. It killed UO even faster.
  • Everyone i knew didn't leave because of trammel. Tramnel was why people stayed and even started playing.

    It had other issues...

    A lot did go to WoW. While i continued to play Uo. Evently, the last folks i know moved over. They liked the UI, camera views, etc.

    Trammel wasn't the problem.
  • BoeserBubBoeserBub ...
    edited March 8
    1coldone said:

    Everyone i knew didn't leave because of trammel. Tramnel was why people stayed and even started playing.

    It had other issues...

    A lot did go to WoW. While i continued to play Uo. Evently, the last folks i know moved over. They liked the UI, camera views, etc.

    Trammel wasn't the problem.

    Exactly, they went over to WoW because it is just the better PvE game. If you remove the full loot PvP part, legends of aria is trying to compete with triple A titles that are allready existent and improved for years. In my oppinion they shouldnt try to copy stuff, they should try to give us a new gaming experience , stay where they are and make the best possible game out of it for this niche market (which could be bigger then expected if they surprise with a well thought out system). I dont know exactly how they want to do that, because there are a lot of problems with full loot PvP games (frustrating when you get killed 4-5 times in a short time period, griefing etc.), but I highly doubt that "trammel" is the answer.
  • BoeserBub said:

    1coldone said:

    Everyone i knew didn't leave because of trammel. Tramnel was why people stayed and even started playing.

    It had other issues...

    A lot did go to WoW. While i continued to play Uo. Evently, the last folks i know moved over. They liked the UI, camera views, etc.

    Trammel wasn't the problem.

    Exactly, they went over to WoW because it is just the better PvE game. If you remove the full loot PvP part, legends of aria is trying to compete with triple A titles that are allready existent and improved for years. In my oppinion they shouldnt try to copy stuff, they should try to give us a new gaming experience , stay where they are and make the best possible game out of it for this niche market (which could be bigger then expected if they surprise with a well thought out system). I dont know exactly how they want to do that, because there are a lot of problems with full loot PvP games (frustrating when you get killed 4-5 times in a short time period, griefing etc.), but I highly doubt that "trammel" is the answer.
    That was a different time and something really new and exciting. Now the market is saturated.

    With the imbalance they have and forcing PvP, they should consider it or stop forcing PvP and spread resources through out the world. Same with areas to raise skills. Or they can have their niche player base, that makes very little money and that player base complaining why the slows to a crawl with content.

    To each their own though.
  • Elgar SandesElgar Sandes Crimson Sea
    Trammel stopped UO from dying. UO has its peak playerbase during trammel. Buying characters with high skills from the UO store for real cash killed UO.
  • SanakSanak United States
    edited March 8
    Karakoth said:

    UO implemented trammel/felcucca to stop the bleeding of people. So, people thinking a similar system being in place is not far fetched.
    Then again. Trammel didnt stop the bleed. It killed UO even faster.

    Thats some revisionist history right there lmao. Your alternative facts just dont hold up m8r.

    Fact: UO was released sep 24 1997. UO implemented trammel on may 4, 2000. UO's subscriber based climbed quite a bit after trammel.

    You guys with your "trammel killed uo" is simply rediculous. UO has been out for going on 22 years. Less than 3 of those years were without the option for consentual pvp.
  • Elgar SandesElgar Sandes Crimson Sea
    Exactly!
    Sanak said:


    Karakoth said:

    UO implemented trammel/felcucca to stop the bleeding of people. So, people thinking a similar system being in place is not far fetched.
    Then again. Trammel didnt stop the bleed. It killed UO even faster.
    Thats some revisionist history right there lmao. Your alternative facts just dont hold up m8r.

    Fact: UO was released sep 24 1997. UO implemented trammel on may 4, 2000. UO's subscriber based climbed quite a bit after trammel.

    You guys with your "trammel killed uo" is simply rediculous. UO has been out for going on 22 years. Less than 3 of those years were without the option for consentual pvp.

    Exactly.
  • edited March 10
    Karakoth said:

    UO implemented trammel/felcucca to stop the bleeding of people. So, people thinking a similar system being in place is not far fetched.
    Then again. Trammel didnt stop the bleed. It killed UO even faster.
    Erm, no. UO population was significantly higher after Trammel was added, and player retention was better, as per Raph Koster—Lead Designer for Ultima Online.

    From https://www.raphkoster.com/2018/03/28/uo-postmortem-from-gdc2018/#more-32112:
    One item that has gotten some attention on Twitter was our admission that the PK problem and how we handled it was our biggest mistake. This also deserves some clarification.

    One reason I personally insisted that we continue trying with design methods to solve the PK problem that revolved around empowering players was because I felt that the support costs of adding PK switches and just pushing all the burdens onto the admins would be cost-prohibitive. I was wrong about that; it turns out it doesn’t get cost-prohibitive until at least an order of magnitude more players than we had.

    Business-wise, PKing was unquestionably a mistake. When Trammel went in, the population roughly doubled; our churn rate fell massively. We were losing an extraordinary number of players to the random ganking.

    Design-wise, over time solutions have been found to have full PVP in a world without it being a gankfest, though not with all the freedoms of UO… so we weren’t wrong to try, just didn’t get there. e.g. WoW launched with full RvR PvP, for example, and it wasn’t seen as a gankfest the way UO was (I talked about this in the tail end of the SWG postmortem I wrote).
  • Trammel stopped UO from dying. UO has its peak playerbase during trammel. Buying characters with high skills from the UO store for real cash killed UO.

    +1

    P2w, coupled with a AAA new game coming out, is exactly what killed UO
  • As i said, giving player option is better for the overall health of the GAME.

    More chances for more people to go in the wilderness when they feel they can compete, than most leaving the game and reds still have an empty wilderness with little chance of it changing...due a lack of a playerbase.

    Just hope, at minimum, new servers where everyone has the same rule sets and drop rates on must have books. Next, would be spreading out resources and more places to gain skills.
  • Balancing safe activities for newer blue players with rewarding risk for them to enter PvP areas is crucial. I've recently begun playing as Red and already discovered there are limited points of interests that actually attract players in the wilderness and it's pretty easy for PKs to roam from spot to spot so camping isn't even required. When 3-4 groups of PKs roam through an area every hour or two it really discourages blues from going there. you rarely see blues in the wilderness on Verdant Earth unless it's a dungeon and when you kill them a few times there they take a long break if they even come back. The game needs more points of interest, some that are difficult to access, so it takes more time to round all the points and the risk/reward improves. Players only take risk when they feel there is a higher chance of getting a reward. When there's higher chance of getting PKed, they will quit the game.
  • Balancing safe activities for newer blue players with rewarding risk for them to enter PvP areas is crucial. I've recently begun playing as Red and already discovered there are limited points of interests that actually attract players in the wilderness and it's pretty easy for PKs to roam from spot to spot so camping isn't even required. When 3-4 groups of PKs roam through an area every hour or two it really discourages blues from going there. you rarely see blues in the wilderness on Verdant Earth unless it's a dungeon and when you kill them a few times there they take a long break if they even come back. The game needs more points of interest, some that are difficult to access, so it takes more time to round all the points and the risk/reward improves. Players only take risk when they feel there is a higher chance of getting a reward. When there's higher chance of getting PKed, they will quit the game.

    +1
  • Think all resources should pop up randomly in the world (set amount or time they spawn) and books can be world drops. They can still have the dedicated checkpoints for specific place to go.

    That spreads the world out and gives a reason to risk going out....without it being forced in certain areas.
  • HawkshieldHawkshield United States
    Random resources would increase the feel of gamble, but a worthwhile one. As far as T1-3 books, that should be in the hands of the trainers, it only makes sense.
  • edited March 10
    ok.... who or what forcing you to to pvp?. if u don't like pvp for what u need books?
  • mandrain said:

    ok.... who or what forcing you to to pvp?.

    Reds.
  • Squid said:

    mandrain said:

    ok.... who or what forcing you to to pvp?.

    Reds.
    +1
  • mandrain said:

    ok.... who or what forcing you to to pvp?. if u don't like pvp for what u need books?

    What came 1st, the chicken or the egg?
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